Wendy Kendall
Hello, and welcome to Episode Nine of the Inspiring Psychologists podcast where we are breaking the mould of private practice. And today we are talking about the power of collaboration, working with big companies to create positive change in the workplace. And I'm going to be talking to two of my colleagues, Michelle Minnikin, and Rebecca Longman who are both business psychologists. And I'm pretty happy because the business psychologists are back in the house, we've been talking with clinical and counselling psychologists, and as much as I love my clinical and counselling colleagues, and feeling like I'm getting in the comfort zone with my occupational colleagues today, so I'm really looking forward to sharing this discussion where we're gonna find out more about how business psychologists are shaping the future of private practice. So welcome to the podcast to Michelle Minnikin. And Rebecca Longman. Hello, there. Hi. Oh, it's great to be with you today. And we were talking in the comments on LinkedIn. I think when we put the notice up for this LinkedIn live that was coming out and commenting that it first of all, it's really awesome to be kind of back in the room together, because we've known one another now for about, what, five, five years at least six years, because Michelle, you're one of the originals, as we call you from the original psychology practice accelerator programme, which feels like a world away now since I first met you at that point. And Rebecca, I think you were like, practice accelerator too, or something was because
Rebecca Longman
I remember when I first joined, I was I had my first son, and he yes and a half now and because you got TPPA Yeah, baby TPPA. While he was the first TPPA, baby, I think,
Wendy Kendall
yes, yes. And he was not the last several things, which is pretty awesome. So I'm also really, we were kind of excited in the comments as well, because you you too, and now living within 20 miles of one another. Whereas when we first started out, Rebecca, you're on the other side of the Atlantic, beaming to us from East Coast of America every time.
Rebecca Longman
That's right. Yeah, I was in Connecticut, and I just moved back six weeks ago. And yeah, Michelle and I have yet to meet because my life has been pretty chaotic since moving back, but it's on my cards.
Michelle Minnikin
list of things to do.
Rebecca Longman
Yeah, yeah.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. And, you know, next time I'm in the north of England, I'm gonna have to buzz up and see the pair of you. Right, so we've just got straight into, you know, the whole like, Oh, isn't it nice being with our mates again, but they ask you for some, for some introductions, please. So Michelle, starting with you an intro to who you are and what you're up to?
Michelle Minnikin
Um, I don't know today.
Wendy Kendall
Very existential question.
Michelle Minnikin
Matthew. I'm going to be Tina Turner. And
Wendy Kendall
well, I was Kate Bush with this hair style. A bit of a hair disaster. You're Matthew.
Michelle Minnikin
Yeah, yeah. Coffee already this morning, clearly. My name is Michelle Minnikin. I'm an Organisational Psychologist, and coach. I'm soon to be author, which has been painful and scary, but mostly writing. And I am the sort of the co founder, I'm the culture captain of a company called Work Pirates, which I run with my partner and my partner. So that's, that's interesting. So we do things like leadership, development, coaching, and touch on some neurodiversity stuff as well. So yes, based in Newcastle. Yes. I also have a Yeah, an ADHD diagnosis, which is also lots of fun. Yeah.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. Which you also talk about? very, kind of share a lot of stuff. And I think I've learned a lot of things from you about the insights and information that you've shared about that. so fabulous. Thank you. over to Rebecca Longman thing, a little bit of intro from you, please.
Rebecca Longman
Sure. So I'm Rebecca Longman. I currently work for an organisation called Mind Gym and as a consultant, I guess really kind of in a leadership development training, sort of a management role in there. And I've actually, it's, it's been a bit of a sort of journey really for me because I have freelanced for them. And now I'm kind of on a permanent contract. But I'm always kind of exploring new things. And I'm sort of moving around the business a little bit and doing different things moved from the US moved over here. And I'm always sort of still looking at my private practice stuff as well. So I'm also an Organisational Psychologist, and I am also a coach, but I don't use my coaching skills as much as I would like. And, and I'm also an author. So I wrote a book called Let's love to Work, which is about basically giving people the sense that they have ownership over how their careers play out. More so than I think people give themselves credit or realise that they have, I think it's very easy for us to get stuck in the kind of hamster wheel of how work controls us, I guess. And we forget to make those choices. So that's kind of what that books about. And the thing that sort of holds me back from continuing to do more in that space is just the fact that I have two little boys, three and five, and they are a lot of work. And so outside of kind of my day job, I struggle a little bit to fit everything in. So I very much want to do more in that space. And I try and apply a lot of that in the work that I do in my role.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, exactly. And exactly. And what I particularly remember about your Can you hear this really awful noise going on? Can you do we have a VR in the background working on the same turn on what's going on? Why I was sound is try Newton a mutator says
Rebecca Longman
was it doing that I was talking to it's just you I think, isn't it?
Wendy Kendall
I could hear when you were doing that? Yeah. Anyone have a go at muting and unmuting? I will do that. And do that again. Hope go? I'm Rebecca on mute. I've done it. I think I don't know what's going on with that noise. But anyway, let's see if we can. I don't know. That's really like, there's my somewhere what? What's happening to our live feed?
Rebecca Longman
Has that come down now?
Wendy Kendall
Ah, so sorry. It may be a little bit of feedback from the thing, but we'll carry on. So, Rebecca, I remember when you were when you were when you and I were first working together that the thing, Rebecca, it might be some feedback that's coming from your mic. So I will mute you. If that's all right. And then there we go. Awesome. Thank you. Sorry about that. So, yeah, I remember when we first met that you had been doing consultancy for big companies. And I think at the time you were working as read ponder, which I really loved this kind of play on the words and so on. But the and then what I really remember about the development of your private practice, and what I think is a really interesting journey to share with people has been and in fact, Michelle, I see reflections of this with your journey as well where you have both taken several iterations and evolutions in how you've developed your practices. And it's almost like as you have been challenging companies to create more positive changes, you yourselves have evolved through those positive changes as organisations as businesses. So Rebecca remember, you know, love to work was this wonderful, kind of grounded analytic project that you undertook, where it was accompanied by podcasting and the you wrote your book and then evolved into connecting with this organisation with Mind Gym where you were freelancing. And then obviously, life has evolved at the moment you've moved back into that role. But still with, as you said, these are the these are the threads that are really meaningful. So yeah, I'm just really interested in kind of understanding your perspective on on these evolutions. And Michelle, as well, I remember that. I think when we first started working together, you you evolved through some projects. And then I remember one of the big things that happened was working with Sam Conniff. If I get in the name, right, yeah, yeah,
Michelle Minnikin
work with him. I just read this book, but yet,
Wendy Kendall
none of us know. But then there was like a partnership that started to evolve, which was very influential. And then through inspiration north and the podcasting, and then also then into work pirates. So it's like this, these very strong evolutions in positive change and development in your workplaces, whilst you're also challenging other organisations to do that. And I think that's, like, really fascinating. So, Rebecca, how's your audio doing? Oh, it's maybe not working. So Michelle. Michelle, so, Michelle, for you, can you kind of reflect on some of that journey? And those evolutions and whether that work, Was that intentional, or what was driving that? Or? Yeah, whatever reflections you have on that?
Michelle Minnikin
Yeah, it's like, oh, and go back to when I got my first proper job, as a psychologist after doing my Masters, and I was working in a independent psychology practice with a chap who ran his own business. And I was like, Oh, I'd love to do this when I grow up. But being a young, female, bubbly thing, I didn't think I would be taken seriously at that point. So I embarked on a career in, in in various companies and did lots of sort of selection development type of stuff. And it wasn't until 2016, when I either got sacked or quit, I still don't really know to this day and thought beggars for a bunch of bananas are going to do on my own. Because I was like, technically a proper grown up at that point. And I fell into that trap, I suppose, of creating what you see around you. So
Wendy Kendall
yes, that's a great way to describe it. Yeah.
Michelle Minnikin
And I never fit in at work. But I didn't know why that point. And so I created this fairly thick, boring psychology practice, that wouldn't really represent me. And I found Hi, I really struggled to sort of connect with it. Because it was just the same as everybody else and trying to sort of look more professional and formal. And, you know, as soon as they sort of saw that, they were like, oh, yeah, and then they met me and then I'm not you know, I'm not super formal. Our branding has swearing in it, you know, heaven forbid, and so I, I really struggled to sort of connect with that. And then I met James and I read the be more pirate books, and something almost clicked that sort of permission to be more us. So we created the inspiration North podcast is a very expensive hobby. And we learned so much by meeting and interviewing people every Monday for 148 weeks. Absolutely not. And then the pandemic pandemic happened and we realised we were just so busy doing things that weren't really bringing any money in so we you know, luckily we got some big projects to sort of see us through stuff, but at last lost that loving feeling as it were. For for the previous company, and I literally, I was sitting here James just desk is next to mine, and I went downstairs, make tea, and came back and I was like, we need to rebrand and within 10 minutes work pirates. We were on GoDaddy and the.com was available on the socializer They look well, it wasn't anywhere near protected. Looking at the top of the trademark stuff. So like, right, this is it. It's obviously waiting around politely for us. So we created the brand got some awesome people to help with that and started being more or less. Yeah. You and I were both part of the NatWest entrepreneur accelerator.
Wendy Kendall
We were I forgot. Yeah, exactly. We both did that. First, it
Michelle Minnikin
was all about grow, grow, grow scale, scale. And I've seen a couple of my colleagues on the programme grow, grow, grow and scale, scale, and then collapse and then scale and grow. Wasn't that wasn't me, the worst part of the job that I ever had was having to manage people. So we knew that we didn't want to, so we've got lovely little collective of people that help us do bits and pieces, and it feels more authentically us. And we can say what we hink and we can be a bit more challenging and a bit more provocative and cheeky. And people, people either love us or hate us, which is I suppose the mark of a decent brand.
Wendy Kendall
Right, exactly. Yeah. And so I think, you know, something that I really, that really struck a chord with me there, first of all, was feeling out of place in the workplace. Hard relate, which is interesting as an Organisational Psychologist, but I think, you know, when I think back to the first role I had, there was very strong element there of and it was in keeping with the role, even though it was an internal role, where we were there to challenge the system anyway. So in that role, it didn't feel as though that was particularly a problem. And, and then the other thing that I really picked up on was where you said, you know, I, well, I created the thing that I saw around me, which I think is, is what we do, because it's almost inevitable. Wow, you know, how would we not do that? Basically, you know, so having the permission to, to do things differently is I think really giving ourselves permission to do things differently. Which I know is something you resonate with, as well. So we'll get because I think that's the topic of the book, right. Talk about that in a moment. But but then this whole thing of I, you know, lost the loving feeling about it. And I think that's such I didn't realise, starting to work with other psychologists in private practice that there will there was going to be this element of disillusionment, that that actually is like the path. You know, it's a little bit of a philosophical element whereby that thing that is causing the disillusionment is actually the path to the Promised Land kind of thing is, you know, the paddling back to what's Yeah, exactly. You know, it's back to what's really meaningful to us, because we've got off track somehow. Yeah, and, you know, with work pirates now, I know, you've talked about this brand, being either you know, you love us or hate us kind of thing. But it sounds as though that comes from a place of strength. Like, it's not kind of fearful about it.
Michelle Minnikin
No, and sometimes we say things and we cringe because we're like, oh, expecting a backlash and don't get any.
Wendy Kendall
No backlash. I think, stay under
Michelle Minnikin
the radar to a point. But yes, it's. So the strap line, I had to check with Eva just to make sure it was I'd say this. But we we did it around for ages trying to figure out what what work pirates was. And I was on a, I was on a zoom with some of our collaborators. And I said, it's just like, unfuck your work, but I can't think of a more polite way. And they were like, Yeah, that's exactly what it is. So, you know, we checked with the marketing company, that CFO we can get away with it, but just put Asterix as swine. And that's exactly what it is, instead of having to do some kind of, we work with, you know, forward seeking organisations make work better and people happier just like it's just easier. The shorthand.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah. And something that really strikes me about the tagline of unfuckable A case that and thinking about some of the discussion points I've seen you raise is that there's, there's a strong element there of being on the side of the workers, which is interesting, because it lends itself to a kind of activism then as well, about, you know, there's a reason behind this. There's a mission behind this. There's, so do you want to talk a little bit about about that as well?
Michelle Minnikin
The capitalism and patriarchy fit? It is. It is fascinating watching the shift of power. Yeah, you know, globalisation and people being able to work remotely. So the shift of power from the employers, to the employees, yeah, when we have the gift, as employees of choice. I could go and work for a company in California, if I really wanted to stay up really late, or get up really early and never figure out what it is. But we we can harness that cross country collaboration, we don't have to necessarily up our family and and move and the companies that don't realise that they have less power than they thought they had, obviously, the likes of Google and Apple, everyone's gonna want to work for them and, you know, beat themselves and
Wendy Kendall
you read the story period of time. Yeah,
Michelle Minnikin
you read the stories about these these companies have who are driving people to like nervous breakdowns, because they're making them work 80 hours a week, and, you know, just look at the NHS and junior doctors and yeah,
Wendy Kendall
most people are going to vote with their feet.
Michelle Minnikin
And it's almost helping organisations realise that they don't have the power anymore. And they have to share it. They have to digitalize work, they have to ask people what they want, and deliver it and get out of their ivory towers.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly.
Michelle Minnikin
Because, you know, all of this blanket, we're going to get everybody back to the office. Or we're going to make everybody worked from home. It's like, Why does have to be blanket approach? Why can't you just whatever works for you? Is for me as an ADHD are literally the least likely base. I'm gonna get anything done.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Besides networking, oh, god, yeah. hydrolate
Michelle Minnikin
not a huge fan of networking. It's fine. But yes, it's put me in a quiet room on my own. Leave me alone for a couple of hours. And I'll create some genius. But if you work in a noisy, overly bright distractible office with exciting people in Notting Hill, yeah, yeah.
Wendy Kendall
So I'm going to bring Rebecca in. Because Hi, Rebecca, I know you're giving you some grief today. So I
Rebecca Longman
apologise, I'm smiling in the background.
Wendy Kendall
No problem. So I really see what you did with love to work with your podcasting with your book, and then also with the work that you started to do with organisations also alert in this vein of kind of empowering and the sharing of power back to people who were working. I really see some reflections in that what how would you kind of describe your evolution in your practice? And yeah, those kinds of things, too.
Rebecca Longman
So I think you're, you're right on with that. That was exactly what drove me to align my practice in that way. Because I've felt very much like Michelle was describing that. Basically, work has just become this thing where it's like a control centre, you know, everyone's supposed to do it in a certain way. And it's like, well, why we're all humans. Everybody talks about, you know, we hate work. Why does it have to be that way? Why do we have to hate work? We don't need to hate work. We got to be there. For probably I think it's something like the stats, like a third of your life you spend at work, well, let's make it better than shit. You know, like, Why does it need to be cracked? So definitely, that's what drove it. And actually, while my personal needs have changed in that, one of the things I found me Most challenging with private practice was the amount of time I spent trying to build client relationships and get that work in, which meant that, you know, to support my young family, I was struggling a bit with that. So that's why I went down the road that I named, but what it's done is it's changed the way that I approach work now, and the way in which I do my current role and the direction that I want to take my future career. Because now, in the past, I used to kind of go along with this idea that, you know, we're all supposed to do work in a certain way. And now I'm pretty much known as, if not the definitely one of the people that causes a bit of a raucous at work, like, if something isn't right, then I will say, you know, I don't think we should do it like that, I think we need to look at it in this way. And think of it differently. And, you know, I'll push people's buttons a little bit. And sometimes, you know, people are on board with that. And other times, they're like, you know, we're not interested in what you've got to say, but I am not prepared to sit quietly anymore. And the other thing that is kind of driven in me is, you know, a lot of my work was kind of consulting based in that, I would go from client to client do a few months here, and then you'd move on to the next thing, you know, and it's very sort of transient, which is just the nature of consulting work. And it's made me realise that, that's not really where I want to make my mark now. So the company that I work for, what I want to do is get more involved in how that company works. Because what the organisation does is creates. It's not just training its people, development, people support for organisations, and I think it does a fantastic job of doing that. But I think we could do it better, I think we could do even more, I think we could be more efficient in how we do that. So it's kind of my experience in private practice. That dichotomy of like working in the business and working on the business is kind of given me that lens of saying, Actually, I want to work on the business, but I understand the in the business piece of, you know, delivering those things. And now I want to kind of continue to build that out in a way that makes it work better. So it's been really, it's been a really inspiring journey. For me, it's given me inspiration in in ways that I don't think I would ever have gained had I not had that private practice experience. And I feel sure that I will go back to that later. But yeah, it's it's been a really, it's been a really interesting journey.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, and I can, I'm really getting shades of how a private practice experience alters the psychological contract with organisations, when we've had to be responsible for our own business. You know, I mean, I always say, I would never make a really good employee. No, because I can really, I can really feel what you're saying both Michelle and Rebecca, that, you know, just staying quiet, when things are not the way that you think that they should be, you know, we get a bit used to, as you said, Michelle, you know, having the power back in our hands. So as employees, if you were going to go back into a role like that, as you said, Rebecca, now, it's like, actually, I'm a positive disrupter on this. I'm not just going to, you know, I'm not just going to bring a lens of oh, what's the best way that I can? Play the game? I don't know how better to describe it other than you know, stay in the box, play the game as best as possible. Now actually, employee be a good employee.
Rebecca Longman
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the thing, the thing that really, I've started to see, and I remember seeing it, I remember being, you know, like a kid and my, my mum, saying to me, you know, I've kind of lost out on my pension or something changed with her pension because she was a she worked for local government for a whole career. And so she had these pensions and then they kind of cut cut some of the pension at one point and she didn't they added her whole life in this, you know, 35 years. Just working. And I thought, well, if they can do that to you, why are we being so loyal to these organisations that can just pull the rug out from under us whenever they like, you know, why can't we be true to ourselves? Yeah, don't be a horrible person. You know, if you believe in something, drive yourself forward for it. There are always other organisations, there's always other jobs, you know, other ways of, of, of making your income, I just think, let's not lose our sense of self and our souls in the work that we're doing, let's just just be ourselves and be true to ourselves as best we can while we make an income.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, yeah. And what I really hear with both of you, again, is about this shifting of the power relationship that is necessary, if we're going to actually have a truly collaborative partnership, because collaboration doesn't really happen with a steep power gradient, you know, that's not what that is, then we need a flatter power gradient, if there's actually going to be collaboration if you're going to harness all of the potential of the people that are working on the same mission as you, in theory, right. So Michelle, I'm going to come over to you actually, and just ask you for a little bit of insight, whatever you can share with us about the book project, because I think it speaks to this a little bit.
Michelle Minnikin
Yes. So it was almost one of those things that come to you in the middle of the middle of the afternoon. And just thinking, Yes, this is exactly what I need to do now. And I spent the last two years doing it. So the book is called Good girl deprogramming. It is a look at how society keep Women and Girls Behaving through the use of coercive control. So yeah, a chap in the 1950s called Albert Bidelman was a social scientist working for the US military. And he was tasked to figure out what magical brainwashing machine, the Chinese had, that were brainwashing prisoners of war from the Korean War, to defend the American prisoners of war to defect to China. So the US military were losing the Shi t, because they thought that all of their all of their G eyes would be become Chinese citizens. And Albert Bidelman came up with a chart of coercion, so 12 techniques that would be used to get people to do what you want. So I am looking at that through a lens of our good girl programming or conditioning to Yeah, it has unleashed so much I've had to go through my own journey of unpicking all of that as well. And, yes, it hopefully, it's coming out this year.
Wendy Kendall
And so understanding those lenses of or exploring those lenses of how different frameworks it sounds as though it's kind of different frameworks, maybe, you know, methods or cultural paradigms that are kind of shaping the way that people behave. Were any of those things that you suddenly thought, Oh, I've seen that in organisations, and I've seen that in organisations and so on. So there's so
Michelle Minnikin
yeah, I've got exactly this exactly the same underpinning. And I'm gonna get James involved in the next book, but the next book is going to be called incorporator. Fi. So it's a look at how you've got
Wendy Kendall
the URL on that before you transmit it live. We've got the URL we've got this trademarked you notice when we want to trademark
Rebecca Longman
it pause. But it's how,
Michelle Minnikin
how we are trained at school to be good students and how those good student habits find us in people in the workplace. Yeah, yeah.
Wendy Kendall
Well, I mean, I remember God, I don't even know where I pick this. Reading somewhere. That, you know, our education system. I'm really interested in my educational psychologists, colleagues perspectives on this, but my education is probably not the same as what is happening in schools now because obviously it was 40 years ago. But at the time, you know, we were all learning to sit still to stay in place for a certain amount of time to follow. centralised instructions, you know. So the wrong thing.
Michelle Minnikin
Discipline. Yeah. Work to do.
Wendy Kendall
Exactly that. Exactly. End. Right. Okay. My dad, I mean, I say that but exactly, you know, I've got two now young adult children. So I remember from primary and secondary school as well. But the thing that really struck me when I first heard about, you know, why would why was that framework or approach applied versus how it prepared people for the work for work? Because in those days, and I remember, I remember these days, you know, I had family who were working in Mills, still cotton mills in the north of England, who were still clocking in, I had a job when I was at university during some of clocking in, if you were three minutes, late, you got docked an hour's pay, you know, all this kind of all these controlling lenses, essentially, and but it was the kind of work that we were doing. That's not what we're up to now. Right? That's not what we can, we can approach work with now.
Michelle Minnikin
And kids, without any critical thinking, yeah, he's looking at, you know, wanting to be right. And wanting to be perfect, is the right answer. Yeah. And, and being able to adapt to authority, so completely, not being themselves
Wendy Kendall
see inverse, actually, of what we probably need. Rebecca, and bringing you in here, because I'm mindful that I can't pick up on visual signals. So just wanted to kind of open the making for your reflections on, you know, some of these, these paradigms of control, because I can imagine for someone who is really concerned about people enjoying work and being supported to be able to be their best that, you know, that would be the antithesis from your perspective as well.
Rebecca Longman
Yeah, it really is. I've been nodding along the whole time. And it's such a, it's such a difficult realm to explore. Because I know, when I was working in private practice for myself, I felt like I could really have a real big voice. And while I've now made the decision, that I'm still going to have a voice, it's muted, because of control. And that's not from anyone in particular. And it's not that I've been told to to myself in any way. But it's this underlying sense of there's other people who control your destiny. And I don't think that's the way that we should be, I think we should have that space to be able to be ourselves and to, to, in a way of like you were saying, Wendy, you know, this positive disruption in this way that actually, if we allow people to speak out, and we give them the floor, and we give them that space, that they can actually do positive things and make change happen. It might be that some of the things that people come out with or whatever, that they're not super useful, but let's give them that space. And certainly, that's a lot of the work that I do now. It's giving, it's creating, like programmes that allow people to have that space and training people in, you know, managers in the workplace leaders in the workplace to give people that their voice and to be open to it not to just give them in and then say, Okay, well, we've we've let everybody talk now, let's just put all this in the background somewhere and just store it away and do nothing with it, but actually act on it, and how to act on it and how to deal with the the tensions and the stressors that come along with that. Because the world is changing consistently around us all the time. Everything's moving, everything's always changing. And none of us have the answers. You know, we don't know how to deal with the, the weird things that are getting thrown at us. I mean, look at COVID Look at, you know, the political landscape that we're living in right now. It's, it's completely uncharted territory. So how can we expect just because someone's a leader in an organisation that they suddenly have all these answers? Yes, they have different experiences. But why don't the people in the organisations who are working on the ground have some, some ideas and thoughts too, and let's give them the floor and give them that space? And that's, that's just what I'm always that's how I always think Now we're at you know anyone who comes to me and says, I have an idea I say, get out there and bloody say it Then get yourself in a space and tell someone about it. And then might turn around and say I'm not interested but at least you gave it a shot as the Geordie phrase go shy Ben's getting out. And that my my ethos on life you don't ask you don't get so yeah, get yourself out that
Wendy Kendall
that's your next book. Rebecca Shai burns getting out
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, you know, really, a lot of things come up for me here, obviously, you know, talking about I love this phrase of having a real big voice and reimagining real big voice with you know, capitalised. Because Have you got one have you got? Have you got that as a book? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Playing big. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, we I know, we kind of all love that book, too. And it was Tara Moore's playing big book for the people who listened back on audio. But, um, yeah, so two things really come to mind about that. One is how often we struggle as psychologists in private practice to have a real big voice. And when I talk about real, I mean, like, authentic like, like our discussion today, we've had the tech grammes we've had it but this is, this is courage to get out there, and to say the things and to have the discussions and to be real about it without having, as you said, Michelle, these kinds of lenses of control, which we then internalise which, you know, drive things like perfectionism and and people pleasing, people pleasing. Exactly, exactly. So as psychologists, there's so much of that that we get socialised into in different ways, I think, you know, from what I've heard from my clinical colleagues, there's a lot about the actual clinical doctorate programme that socialises people into, you know, being a little bit afraid of breaking out of the box. And that might start off with good intentions, but I think it has developed and, you know, gone further than that, which in ways that aren't necessarily useful. And, and the other thing that really strikes me is, I mean, Rebecca, you talked there about the amount of change that we're facing the amount of change that's happening, whether it's pandemics, whether it's political change, but also, you know, look at what the IPCC report said earlier this year, which is Bau business, as usual, simply cannot continue, it can't continue. So it's either going to be you know, looking at these big companies that are around the business model is not viable, within planetary boundaries. And therefore, if we don't change those things, it's it, you know, life is gonna come quickly down the road to us and the and then it will be unviable in other ways. So we're either going to change it proactively, or we're going to have to face a certain reality that certain industries are, you know, unable to continue. So, in that sense, changing and shifting power relationships in organisations has to happen. Supporting people to deal with those changes in a way that enables them to continue and not just shut down in horror is important. And, you know, go into defensiveness and descend into conflict, and so on. And I think there's a lot of necessity, to continue to bolster one another, to provide hope for one another, to keep looking forward, and to keep dismantling things that are getting in the way as we hopefully at least move towards some things that continue to, you know, be viable in terms of a future. And, you know, part of me when I looked at so in 2020, I had a big change in my direction as well thinking about the evolutions of business which was I was doing a lot of corporate work up until 2020. developed systems for RAM for getting return on investment from overseas job moves, we've been capturing data about ROI, I had the okay from the global head of talent, we were going to roll it out across a global organisation. And then the pandemic hit, and all the borders got shot, no one got moved. And at the same time, everyone in psychology, everyone went online, and this business suddenly started to really, to really move. But the thing that really kind of struck me at that time was that I was really disheartened not by the clients, particularly that I was working with, to be honest, but other organisations that I saw that I was kind of adjacent to where I saw some of the behaviour that was happening in response to this big disruption that had been talking about for 20 years was on its way, it's why we were developing agile leadership. It's why we were you know, talking about how do we deal with the VUCA world and all these things. And as soon as the VUCA world became really real, everyone reverted back to tight, and like, forgot everything. And so Rebecca saw that, too.
Rebecca Longman
Yes, absolutely. I did. I often think we're talking. And when I say we, I mean, society talks a good game about many things. Yeah, in reality, it doesn't play out that way. One of the things I think, is such a sort of weird oxymoron is that, you know, we we look up to our hierarchical elders, in organisations as the people who know best, and then suddenly there comes a point where those elders are too old, and they all get pushed out and nobody wants to hire them. And you're like, that doesn't make any sense. Like that aren't Surely these other wise people that that we've been looking to for all this time, and then all of a sudden, we're not interested anymore, because you're, you're over 60 Will or whatever it is
Wendy Kendall
5050?
Rebecca Longman
is the sense in this, like, what are we what are we doing? We're not thinking about the value that that people can add, and the individuals that that, you know, that we need to help us move society forward in a positive way. Yeah. It's, it's crazy, the messages are very different to the realities in many ways.
Wendy Kendall
So I really admire both of you for kind of being to use an ancient industrial metaphor at the coalface. In kind of provoking and pushing and cajoling and supporting and all of these other things, these big Leviathan companies and their legacy systems and legacy paradigms to actually shift direction. And so I'm going to cook come across to you, Michelle, what do you hope for the future? When it comes to working with big companies to create positive change in the workplace? What are you hoping for?
Michelle Minnikin
You know, what, honestly, we've done, we've, we've limited our work of big companies.
Wendy Kendall
Interesting, because
Michelle Minnikin
they are too hard to stop and change. So we are concentrating on the the smaller organisations where we can actually make a difference, because we find that, well, individual coaching is fine that we could do that in big companies. And it's just a one to one really, but if we want to actually make systemic change, again, to what the podcast is called, but you know, me being contrarians like not as usual. If you want to make big, big change, you work in a smaller pool. Yeah, if you look at the number of people you can affect in smaller orgs. Quorum the figures, but most companies in the UK, and especially, you know, across the developed world have fewer than 50 people.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, that's true. That's true. So
Michelle Minnikin
it is all about and they're sort of human sized companies where there are relationships and you're not turned into a cog in the machine. So I think if I could give some advice to those in bigger companies is look at the look at the smaller companies. Look at what they're doing. that make work more tolerable bearable, fun, you know, moving towards a Becker's loving the work because they're able to personalise their approach are able to individualise their workstation or work location, or yeah, look at what their strengths are and harness those strengths and work cross purpose, because one of the things in big companies is to drive me insane was that we're all in silos, you know, I didn't talk to finance, didn't talk to HR didn't talk to the, the the guys constructing buildings, and it was just so fragmented. And in a small company, we can have those more organic cross pollination type
Wendy Kendall
operations. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I wonder how. Because I think there is a route for change at the level of small and medium sized companies then to start filtering and influencing the way that bigger companies work. And I'm kind of fascinated to see how that, how that evolves, Rebecca, and coming to you, because I know that you're also involved with larger companies for your perspective on where you see how you see we can kind of, or whatever, you know, the hopes of the future in terms of influencing and changing some of those bigger companies?
Rebecca Longman
I can't, I sit on both sides. So in some ways, Michelle, I agree with you, I think a lot of the smaller companies can really kind of shape the path for how we should do things, because it's a lot easier for them to shift their ways of working
Michelle Minnikin
more quickly,
Rebecca Longman
just, you know, financially, it's can be easier. But I've always had this drive to get into these big organisations, I remember when I first started my career, my plan was to work in some of the big banks, because I just felt like they were so archaic in their thinking that that's where I wanted to be. And that's what I wanted to shift. And I still think in that way, I think if we can really get in and plant a seed, even in a small department of a large organisation, if you get that right, and you start to kind of change minds and shift thinking in those small ways, then you can, you can kind of pollinate that across the organisation, but the ways in which you pollinate that, it that's what takes the thinking, those kinds of relationships that you build, and those learnings that kind of spread across our RRM difficult to generate. And you know, it's not, it's not an easy process. But I think that's where we can start to really change minds. And that's what I kind of continue to drive
Wendy Kendall
drive. Yeah. Yeah. And so again, it comes back to this shifting power relationship, whereby influencing and shifting and, you know, creating that more positive change within pockets within a workforce, which can then spread. I mean, I never remember the name. But there was a Nobel scientists, Nobel Prize winning scientist, who I think was won the prize for chemistry, who talked about how, when systems are at their highest level of chaos, you can create small, if you can create small islands of coherence, you can actually start to shift the overall system into a greater level of coherence. So in all different kinds of paradigms, we see they're actually shifting power relationships, and creating positive disruptions. And I think, Michelle, your point about bringing awareness to the mechanisms of control so that we can see them and we can hopefully move beyond them is how we not just shift Small and Medium organisations, whether it's private practices or you know, bigger companies. But we also start to hopefully shift larger organisations as well. Awesome. Where can we find both of you on social media? Michelle,
Michelle Minnikin
LinkedIn, LinkedIn, yeah, awesome.
Wendy Kendall
Show Notes. Exactly. Rebecca, how about you?
Rebecca Longman
Same for me, actually, I used to be on lots of different social media channels. And I just I found I was whittling away my time and life trying to keep them up. And so, yeah, LinkedIn is where you can find me. Yeah. And I'm really good at responding to people as well. I'd love to chat. I love you know, to connect with people. So you want to reach out. And fantastic.
Wendy Kendall
Yeah, perfect. Thanks so much for being here today. And also thank you to everyone who joined in and had a listen or a watch on LinkedIn or in on Facebook. And thanks to Michelle from Michelle Minnikin, from Work Pirates, and Rebecca Longman, and we will look forward to seeing you next week where we are talking about the power of neurodiversity practices. So I will look forward to seeing you all again then. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thanks. Bye
