[00:00:00] From Burnout to Balance: Navigating Healing in Private Practice
[00:00:00] Wendy Kendall: Do you want me to do it?
[00:00:05] Wendy Kendall: Welcome to episode two of the inspiring Psychologist podcast.
[00:00:10] Wendy Kendall: And in this episode, we're looking at the topic of burnout, thinking about from burnout to balance, navigating, healing in private practice.
[00:00:25] Wendy Kendall: And so I wanted to think about burnout in this first episode because it is such an enormous topic within our profession.
[00:00:34] Wendy Kendall: Not only do we have a lot of psychologists who work with burnout in different contexts, so I know me as an occupational psychologist, Burnout is one of the topics that we come across in the occupational setting, of course, clinical and counseling psychologists, health psychologists, everyone has a kind of perspective to bring to the topic of burnout.
[00:00:59] Psychologists in Private Practice and Burnout
[00:00:59] Wendy Kendall: However, I feel like the topic of burnout in our profession and in our private practices is also becoming much more salient when we're thinking about the stresses and strains that people have been under, especially through the pandemic.
[00:01:19] Wendy Kendall: And there's research that is coming out there that shows that levels of burnout are higher than they've ever been, and that even one of the things that kind of strikes me about that is that we come into private practice sometimes already with a degree of burnout, and that actually private practice can be a place where we find, or we hope to find solace or respite from our experiences that have caused the burnout in the first place.
[00:01:54] Wendy Kendall: And so I'm really delighted today that my co host is Dr.
[00:01:59] Wendy Kendall: Paula Redmond, who is also the host and the founder of the amazing podcast when work hurts.
[00:02:08] Wendy Kendall: And, Paula, you and I have had some discussions about this on your podcast.
[00:02:14] Wendy Kendall: So I'm really so happy to bring you into this.
[00:02:18] Wendy Kendall: Can you tell me a little bit about your practice and your podcast and what perspective you're coming at this topic of burnout from professionally?
[00:02:33] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah.
[00:02:34] Dr Laura Villa: Well, thank you, Wendy, for inviting me here.
[00:02:37] Dr Laura Villa: It's really great to be here.
[00:02:39] Dr Laura Villa: So my practice is fairly new.
[00:02:42] Dr Laura Villa: So I left the NHS in 2020 in that tumultuous time and was really coming from a place of really struggling with being in the NHS and having seen a lot of burnout, a lot of work related stress in my colleagues and in myself.
[00:03:06] Dr Laura Villa: And when I had the chance to go into private practice, that's really what I wanted to focus on.
[00:03:12] Dr Laura Villa: And obviously, the pandemic provided then lots of opportunities to get stuck into that and a real kind of spotlight on the issue more publicly, more widely.
[00:03:26] Dr Laura Villa: So I work primarily with health care professionals around burnout and work related trauma, individual work, but also with teams and kind of reflective practice stuff.
[00:03:45] Dr Laura Villa: And I started the podcast a couple of years ago, so it was really, I think, partly part of my burnout prevention strategy, rather than me kind of sitting at home by myself working online as a way of being able to have conversations with people and meet a need for me, something around a bit of activism around this topic, being able to speak about things that are difficult to speak about, a lot of taboo, a lot of shame around these issues.
[00:04:29] Dr Laura Villa: And I hadn't come across particularly a psychologist voice in this space so much.
[00:04:42] Dr Laura Villa: This was been a wonderful opportunity to speak to amazing people, both who are working in this field and doing really exciting things, but also people who've just been very brave in sharing their own stories and their own experiences around when work is really hurt.
[00:05:01] Dr Laura Villa: And I think there's something for me about how work takes up so much of our lives in terms of time, but also, I think, especially for health professionals, it's so intertwined with our identities and our values that when things are difficult, when things do go wrong, it can be so damaging personally.
[00:05:23] Dr Laura Villa: And I think we just need to talk about it.
[00:05:26] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, I love that.
[00:05:28] Wendy Kendall: And I was doing a little bit of research online, as we do when we're kind of thinking about these topics and doing a bit of research for the episode.
[00:05:39] Wendy Kendall: And I found online, I'll link it in the show notes, a very recent critical analysis, a literature analysis that had been submitted by Amy Peters at the University of Exeter for her clinical doctorate thesis.
[00:05:59] Wendy Kendall: So shout out to you, Amy, because Amy had brought together in that thematic analysis a lot of literature looking at psychologists in particular, burnout and well being in psychologists.
[00:06:13] Wendy Kendall: And I think she says in the thesis, this is the first time it's been done.
[00:06:18] Wendy Kendall: And I think that's the case.
[00:06:20] Wendy Kendall: I've certainly not seen it before myself in that a couple of things that she had drawn out was obviously the emotional demands of our jobs as psychologists.
[00:06:32] Wendy Kendall: And I know clinical counseling psychologists makes a lot of sense, but also in the educational fields, in the business fields and so on, so much demand and so much kind of stress in all of those areas that I think this is something that all kinds of psychologists are potentially exposed to for private practitioners.
[00:06:58] Wendy Kendall: And just picking up on what you said about the importance of the conversations and connecting with people, the kind of social support was also a big mediating factor in the experience of burnout.
[00:07:11] Wendy Kendall: Do we have effective social support around us or not?
[00:07:14] Wendy Kendall: And then another piece of evidence that I thought was super interesting was looking specifically at counseling psychologists, that there were lower levels of burnout in private practice in comparison with hospital settings.
[00:07:30] Wendy Kendall: But Amy had noted the potential for survivorship bias because people who'd left the profession because of burnout weren't represented in that.
[00:07:41] Wendy Kendall: You know, it just kind of brings it back to me how important it is for us to think about not just the experience of burnout, but also the context in which we're sitting and about how that's impacting and how we can influence and shape our environment to kind of reduce our own exposure to things that might lead to burnout.
[00:08:13] Dr. Lara Villa on Overcoming Stress and Overwhelm in City Workers
[00:08:13] Wendy Kendall: So I'm very excited to kind of welcome our guest today, who is Dr.
[00:08:20] Wendy Kendall: Lara Villa, and.
[00:08:23] Wendy Kendall: Hi, Lara.
[00:08:25] Dr Paula Redmond: Hi.
[00:08:25] Wendy Kendall: It's great to be here.
[00:08:27] Wendy Kendall: I'm so excited.
[00:08:28] Dr Paula Redmond: Thank you for having me on the podcast.
[00:08:31] Wendy Kendall: So Lara runs an independent psychology practice, helping city workers to overcome stress and overwhelm, including those with a trauma history and ADHD.
[00:08:42] Wendy Kendall: And I think there are some specific areas around trauma history, neurodiversity, ADHD, which are not irrelevant to our private practice context as well.
[00:08:57] Therapist Burnout and Private Practice
[00:08:57] Wendy Kendall: I mentioned earlier the statistics on therapist burnout.
[00:09:01] Wendy Kendall: We know burnout is high across other sectors, but I just wanted to bring this back to our own experiences and ask how has the topic of burnout influenced your own practice?
[00:09:15] Wendy Kendall: So, if I can ask you, Laura, Paula spoke a little bit about her experiences earlier, but for you, how has burnout influenced your own practice?
[00:09:26] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, obviously Paula's experience resonates very much with mine because I'm one of those clinicians, psychologists, who left NHS because I was feeling that feeling burning out.
[00:09:43] Dr Paula Redmond: I don't think at the time I used the burnout word or concept, but clearly I was feeling a lot of overwhelm and feeling that the NHS wasn't satisfying any of my needs for the stage of life I was in.
[00:10:00] Dr Paula Redmond: So the idea of moving on to private practice was just really trying to meet my needs and to find balance in my life.
[00:10:09] Dr Paula Redmond: And I have to say that was what I found was actually a right decision for me at the time.
[00:10:16] Dr Paula Redmond: It continues to be a decision that I'm really pleased with.
[00:10:20] Dr Paula Redmond: What is really interesting is that moving to private practice doesn't mean that you do not experience, no longer experience any overwhelm or no longer experience any other sort of distress, because we are humans, and for me, we're talking about living in cities.
[00:10:44] Dr Paula Redmond: My service is called city living psychology.
[00:10:47] Dr Paula Redmond: I live in London.
[00:10:48] Dr Paula Redmond: So like my clients, city workers, I am one of my clients.
[00:10:53] Dr Paula Redmond: I experience exactly the same stresses that they experience.
[00:10:57] Dr Paula Redmond: So I guess for me, it's very much how you find balance within your private practice.
[00:11:03] Dr Paula Redmond: Living in the cities where you're not immune from life adversities life transitions, the stresses, the strains.
[00:11:10] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's very much searching and adjusting to find that balance.
[00:11:17] Dr Paula Redmond: And it's ongoing.
[00:11:20] Dr Paula Redmond: I don't think there is not an end to that.
[00:11:23] Dr Paula Redmond: I think, as psychologists, I feel lucky because we have the tools to be aware of what is happening, to somehow acknowledge and be curious about how you are responding to particular events, and is a continuous adjusting and reshaping.
[00:11:45] Dr Paula Redmond: So doing very much sort of what I preach applying to my own self as a person and a psychologist.
[00:11:59] Finding Balance and Autonomy in Private Practice
[00:11:59] Dr Paula Redmond: Is there anything else, Wendy, that you were thinking?
[00:12:03] Dr Paula Redmond: How does this resonate to you as well in your practices?
[00:12:08] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:12:09] Wendy Kendall: So I think the thing that really kind of comes to me about what you've described there, Lara, is how this is an ongoing search for balance.
[00:12:20] Wendy Kendall: I think sometimes we get the idea that balance is like a perfect state of homeostasis.
[00:12:26] Wendy Kendall: Like we find the plan, the answer, and somehow there will be a place of being imbalanced versus being burnt.
[00:12:39] Wendy Kendall: Mean.
[00:12:41] Wendy Kendall: When you kind of externalize the idea like that and kind of really examine it, you think to yourself, well, that's not how life is, right.
[00:12:48] Wendy Kendall: Life, as you said, lara, there are so many demands on us.
[00:12:51] Wendy Kendall: Different things happen.
[00:12:53] Wendy Kendall: And a point I come back to time and again myself with my clients, know what's right for this season or this time.
[00:13:05] Wendy Kendall: And so as opposed to kind of building inflexibility into our practices or our lives, where life has got to be set up like this.
[00:13:16] Wendy Kendall: And that's the perfect balance, actually, the flexibility, and I think the kind of sense of autonomy that we can have in our private practices is something that can really offset the risk of burnout.
[00:13:34] Wendy Kendall: So being able to dial up the activity or dial down the activity when we need it.
[00:13:41] Wendy Kendall: But the interesting thing for me, I think when I think about my own experiences, was I had brought with me a mindset of how life had to be structured.
[00:13:57] Wendy Kendall: And if my private practice is going to be successful, then I need to be adhering to the hustle culture.
[00:14:05] Wendy Kendall: I need to be working late in the evenings.
[00:14:08] Wendy Kendall: I need to just suspend my own needs for however long.
[00:14:15] Wendy Kendall: Until what?
[00:14:16] Wendy Kendall: Until I hit six figures?
[00:14:18] Wendy Kendall: Until I ten times my turnover?
[00:14:20] Wendy Kendall: Do you know all these kind of hustle culture messages that we receive about business?
[00:14:29] Wendy Kendall: I became my own kind of worst manager, like the managers that I tried to leave behind from private sector.
[00:14:37] Wendy Kendall: When I first came into my practice, I kind of perpetrated the same harms on myself by bringing those into my practice.
[00:14:47] Wendy Kendall: So one of the first exercises, and people may have heard me talk about this when I start working with people about creating their private practices.
[00:14:58] Wendy Kendall: Is this exercise of the hell yeses and the hell no's line down the middle of the paper.
[00:15:06] Wendy Kendall: What's a hell yes?
[00:15:06] Wendy Kendall: What's a hell no?
[00:15:08] Wendy Kendall: And sometimes giving ourselves permission to say especially the hell no's, it's like the first time we give ourselves permission to say no, I'm not doing that.
[00:15:21] Wendy Kendall: That's a boundary for me.
[00:15:22] Wendy Kendall: I'm not doing.
[00:15:26] Wendy Kendall: So that brought up some stuff for me, Lara, when you were describing that.
[00:15:32] Dr Paula Redmond: Absolutely.
[00:15:33] The Challenges of Private Practice: Expectations vs Reality
[00:15:33] Dr Paula Redmond: And it's interesting, isn't it, following off from what you say is the expectations that we bring to what type of private practice we would like to develop.
[00:15:43] Dr Paula Redmond: And actually, as you are developing your private practice, how does it feel to be developing that private practice and whether your expectation actually meet, whether you still enjoy doing what you're doing or in the meanwhile, what I experienced for myself is I always go back to what stage of life I am, I am in.
[00:16:02] Dr Paula Redmond: And of course, I qualified 20 years ago, so I'm a very different clinician to what I was 20 years ago, and I've been in private practice now for seven years.
[00:16:12] Dr Paula Redmond: So seven years ago, I had a different idea of what my private practice would be.
[00:16:17] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's a constant bringing back where I am in my life, what are my needs, what are my expectations, and what is really important to me now and then trying to adjust that to make it work for you.
[00:16:35] Dr Paula Redmond: And I think sometimes it's lowering the expectations, but sometimes it's actually working towards the type of practice that you want to develop and the type of clinician you want to be.
[00:16:46] Dr Paula Redmond: And it's a constant adjustment.
[00:16:50] Dr Paula Redmond: And yeah, I think that's what I'm learning.
[00:16:53] Dr Paula Redmond: The more I work in private practice is how much my practice has changed and how much as a clinician, I am changing.
[00:17:01] Dr Paula Redmond: Exactly.
[00:17:03] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, exactly.
[00:17:04] Dr Laura Villa: It's interesting that I thought, because I think thinking about working in the NHS, we know that the one constant is change.
[00:17:13] Dr Laura Villa: Things are always changing.
[00:17:15] Dr Laura Villa: There's always some new improvement plan or transformation agenda that always is a total nightmare.
[00:17:29] Dr Laura Villa: And then I guess if you step out of that particularly, I guess over the last few years, there's been constant change in upheaval and turmoil in the world.
[00:17:39] Dr Laura Villa: And I guess the advantage of having that autonomy is being able to go with that in a way that meets your needs.
[00:17:52] Dr Laura Villa: But on the flip side, you're carrying all the responsibility for making those decisions for.
[00:17:59] Dr Laura Villa: You haven't got an IT department to call on, or an HR department, or an organizational development department or finance backup.
[00:18:10] Dr Laura Villa: You've got all of that on your own.
[00:18:12] Dr Laura Villa: And it can be really.
[00:18:21] Wendy Kendall: I mean, thinking about Amy Peters thematic analysis, I'm going to have to tag her in this, going to have to find her or, you know, what she was saying in the thematic analysis about the social support, makes me think about how important it is to not feel as though you have to do everything in your private practice on your own.
[00:18:44] Wendy Kendall: So whether that's peer support, whether it's connecting with friends and colleagues over coffee, a lot of people talk about missing that when they leave a workplace where they've had a team around them, even just to have coffee and bounce ideas around and chat generally.
[00:19:11] Wendy Kendall: But also, it's so interesting to me how, as you said, paula, when we're in a workplace, we expect that there are other people who take care of these things.
[00:19:22] Wendy Kendall: Like, yet, I mean, it's that time of year when we're recording this podcast, the kind of end of January at last quarter of the financial year in the UK, and how many times do we have questions about how to fill in taxes and how to fill in self assessment forms for the tax collectors and so on, because people don't necessarily feel as though they can give themselves permission to hire an accountant or to hire a bookkeeper or feeling like they have to really keep that down.
[00:19:57] Wendy Kendall: And so, as you said, paula, something that we just naturally take for granted in a work context, we don't always give ourselves permission to do when we're in our private practices.
[00:20:09] Wendy Kendall: And I think that's really curious, and I'm not sure where that comes from, if I'm really honest.
[00:20:15] Wendy Kendall: I don't know if you've got any perspectives on that.
[00:20:19] Dr Laura Villa: I think it's because people don't.
[00:20:21] Dr Laura Villa: It's not very visible.
[00:20:23] Dr Laura Villa: If you are in private practice and you seeing colleagues, particularly very visible ones, they don't show you that's not on Instagram when you're seeing these amazing.
[00:20:40] Wendy Kendall: That's true.
[00:20:41] Dr Laura Villa: People doing wonderful things, and it's hard to talk about.
[00:20:47] Dr Laura Villa: I think burnout carries huge shame.
[00:20:51] Dr Laura Villa: Burnout.
[00:20:54] Dr Laura Villa: When your job is supporting people at the worst point of their lives, to kind of say out loud, I don't want to do this today, like, oh, this is too much for me right now.
[00:21:09] Dr Laura Villa: Yes, it's difficult.
[00:21:13] Dr Laura Villa: And it also becomes then a cognitive load that clouds your ability to discern.
[00:21:22] Dr Laura Villa: Okay, well, actually, if I just could park that with an accountant, that would create some headspace.
[00:21:28] Dr Laura Villa: We kind of can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.
[00:21:34] Dr Laura Villa: Again, that's where the social support and support of supervision and stuff is so useful.
[00:21:42] The Importance of Behind the Scenes Teams in Private Practice
[00:21:42] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah.
[00:21:44] Wendy Kendall: You've really brought home to me how important it is to show the behind the scenes on our private practices a little bit.
[00:21:53] Wendy Kendall: When you think about your behind the scenes teams, who's, who's most supportive?
[00:21:58] Wendy Kendall: What makes most difference to you, would you say, Lara, for you?
[00:22:03] Wendy Kendall: Question for you.
[00:22:04] Wendy Kendall: I'm going to target you on that one first.
[00:22:07] Wendy Kendall: What makes the most behind the scenes difference for you in your private practice?
[00:22:15] Dr Paula Redmond: It's interesting about accountant.
[00:22:16] Dr Paula Redmond: Accountant is one of those things I did first.
[00:22:19] Dr Paula Redmond: I've done it straight away and I felt I was well done to do that.
[00:22:22] Dr Paula Redmond: So that was a tick for me.
[00:22:24] Dr Paula Redmond: Now it's more about social media, social media and marketing yourself.
[00:22:29] Dr Paula Redmond: That's clearly because social media as a whole, for everyone, starting from teenager, is such a challenging environment to be, to be out there and exposing.
[00:22:44] Dr Paula Redmond: For us, it's about selling your services, which is very much part of your business.
[00:22:50] Dr Paula Redmond: But nobody has really taught you.
[00:22:53] Dr Paula Redmond: I'm learning as I go and I'm learning from others.
[00:22:56] Dr Paula Redmond: So I guess that is probably a main challenge, which is sort of behind the scene as I'm setting up my week is allocating a couple of hours to make sure that I do a few things just to be present on social media.
[00:23:12] Dr Paula Redmond: And that's really, for me, a challenge.
[00:23:18] Dr Paula Redmond: And I would say linking with the burnout is that sense of overwhelm that this can actually bring.
[00:23:28] Dr Paula Redmond: I would say for me is the marketing and social media more than anything else, and making sure that you continue, because that's also part of your, you still need to allocate time to learn.
[00:23:42] Dr Paula Redmond: So is how do you manage the overwhelm?
[00:23:45] Dr Paula Redmond: By learning new tools, testing new tools, which means exposing yourself and familiarizing by the same time being the clinician that you want to be.
[00:23:55] Dr Paula Redmond: So I guess it's being in different places at one time and learning new skills.
[00:24:05] Dr Paula Redmond: So social media marketing would say for me, yes.
[00:24:09] Wendy Kendall: And getting some kind of behind the scenes kind of support or help or tools for managing that as well.
[00:24:16] Wendy Kendall: What about you, Paula?
[00:24:18] Dr Laura Villa: What's your kind of behind the scenes accountants?
[00:24:22] Dr Laura Villa: I would say my dog.
[00:24:24] Dr Laura Villa: He's behind me.
[00:24:25] Wendy Kendall: Right, true.
[00:24:27] Wendy Kendall: Agree.
[00:24:30] Dr Laura Villa: He keeps me.
[00:24:31] Dr Laura Villa: I need to get out and get some fresh air every day.
[00:24:34] Dr Laura Villa: That's really important for me.
[00:24:36] Dr Laura Villa: And he's good at keeping me on my toes with that.
[00:24:41] Dr Laura Villa: And I've been in private practice for, I guess, four years now, and it's changed.
[00:24:49] Dr Laura Villa: So when I started, I was really interested.
[00:24:51] Dr Laura Villa: Like, the idea of building my own website was really creative and exciting, and I love learning that.
[00:24:56] Dr Laura Villa: And so I did that all myself, but now I'm wanting to make some changes and that doesn't actually interest me anymore.
[00:25:07] Dr Laura Villa: So that's a shift, wanting to find someone who can help me with that.
[00:25:13] Dr Laura Villa: But I think probably crucially, it's been communities of other psychologists, like the ones that you've created, Wendy, the self led practice and the TPPA, and other ones I've dipped in and out of over these past few years.
[00:25:31] Wendy Kendall: We're all good old UK three P members and UK psychologists in private practice.
[00:25:38] Wendy Kendall: Facebook group.
[00:25:39] Wendy Kendall: It's a famous one as well.
[00:25:43] Dr Laura Villa: Yeah, those opportunities to.
[00:25:45] Dr Laura Villa: And I've developed some really lovely supportive friendships and working opportunities through those groups, which does feel like a virtual team.
[00:26:00] Dr Laura Villa: And I really don't know what kind of state I would be in without those relationships, but it takes investment and time and prioritizing, carving out space for that.
[00:26:12] Dr Laura Villa: And I think that's been an important.
[00:26:16] Dr Laura Villa: I mean, I guess I feel like I was quite lucky having started in the pandemic when everything was weird and people were doing a lot of reaching out online because we couldn't see anybody any other way.
[00:26:30] Dr Laura Villa: From the beginning, been a really embedded part of my work, but I really hold on to that very fiercely and I've been careful about organizing my working days so that there's always space for that in a working week.
[00:26:53] Dr Laura Villa: And I make.
[00:26:56] Dr Laura Villa: That's kind of not optional, which has a cost, because I don't see as many clients as I could squeeze into a week.
[00:27:07] Wendy Kendall: Exactly.
[00:27:08] Dr Laura Villa: I know that it wouldn't be sustainable otherwise.
[00:27:11] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, exactly that.
[00:27:14] Dr Paula Redmond: It's interesting, isn't it?
[00:27:15] Dr Paula Redmond: I just wanted to add that I mainly work online and I guess reaching out to colleagues and being part of online communities has become.
[00:27:26] Dr Paula Redmond: Is essential because that's my virtual team, is my only team.
[00:27:30] Dr Paula Redmond: And I guess then maintaining your social relationship and connections outside work is obviously extremely important because otherwise, as someone working online, there is a risk that you become very isolated.
[00:27:46] Dr Paula Redmond: And the isolation, as we know, during the pandemic, has a toll on our mental health.
[00:27:51] Dr Paula Redmond: So actually, more than virtual teams and maintaining relationships in terms of your own self care, making sure that you actually see people, see friends, connect with colleagues whenever opportunity there is, is part of that self care and is essential.
[00:28:07] Dr Paula Redmond: I don't think we could do without.
[00:28:10] Dr Paula Redmond: So those online groups that we are lucky to have, they are not really a ruxury, they are a must have, especially if you work online, because the risk of isolation is actually around the.
[00:28:29] Wendy Kendall: And Laura, just to kind of bounce off that as well.
[00:28:33] The Impact of Context and Place on Burnout in Private Practice
[00:28:33] Wendy Kendall: I wanted to ask you about community.
[00:28:38] Wendy Kendall: I know your practice is deeply embedded in community, and I say that because it's so embedded in one of the world's megacities.
[00:28:49] Wendy Kendall: And I think sometimes we overlook the impact of context and place on how we shape our private practice.
[00:29:00] Wendy Kendall: So from your experience, how does where you live and work impact the experience of burnout or alleviating burnout in private practice?
[00:29:16] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:18] Dr Paula Redmond: Earlier I was saying I am one of my clients in the way that I mainly see city workers, people that live and work in the city.
[00:29:30] Dr Paula Redmond: And the type of problems that they bring are very much, very often contextual.
[00:29:35] Dr Paula Redmond: Problems related to how challenging it is to live in a big city and coming from not finding time.
[00:29:44] Dr Paula Redmond: But that includes long distances, that includes long commutes to go to work, waking up in the morning when the light is not out, and then coming back home when it's already dark, especially in the winter.
[00:30:00] Dr Paula Redmond: Challenges of not seeing if you're a parent, not seeing your children, the guilt that comes with that, the sense of responsibility, by the same time, having high expectations about the career projects where they want to be.
[00:30:18] Dr Paula Redmond: So there is a constant juggling of demands.
[00:30:22] Dr Paula Redmond: And trying to find that balance is very difficult.
[00:30:24] Dr Paula Redmond: And sense of burnout and overwhelm is what the majority of people bring.
[00:30:29] Dr Paula Redmond: And of course, everybody's unique.
[00:30:31] Dr Paula Redmond: There are different challenges.
[00:30:34] Dr Paula Redmond: But I would say the fact that working in the city increases isolation.
[00:30:41] Dr Paula Redmond: Connecting with friends and family is not easy, because you need to schedule well in advance.
[00:30:47] Dr Paula Redmond: You don't do things spontaneously.
[00:30:51] Dr Paula Redmond: Let's meet tomorrow.
[00:30:52] Dr Paula Redmond: That doesn't happen because of the distances.
[00:30:55] Dr Paula Redmond: Finding good schools, if you're a parent, can be a big stress.
[00:30:58] Dr Paula Redmond: Because as we know, it's very much, especially in London postcode and is the high expectations that parents can have about the type of school the children we want to send the children to.
[00:31:13] Dr Paula Redmond: And thinking about all the sort of contextual factors.
[00:31:17] Dr Paula Redmond: Green spaces not everyone is lucky to have the time, the energies, but also to have green spaces around the corner.
[00:31:25] Dr Paula Redmond: It's interesting because in our therapy we so often think about how to self regulate and how to co regulate.
[00:31:33] Dr Paula Redmond: And spending time with nature, or going for nice walks is something that seems to be quite basic, because can be accessible to everyone.
[00:31:43] Dr Paula Redmond: But actually working in a city, unless you are by a green space, doesn't necessarily happen.
[00:31:49] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's just really thinking about the almost extra mile that people seems to be having to take to be able to actually self care and self regulate.
[00:32:02] Dr Paula Redmond: There is always a sense of.
[00:32:05] Dr Paula Redmond: It takes effort and energies to just do something that you know is alpha.
[00:32:11] Dr Paula Redmond: But when do you find the time?
[00:32:13] Dr Paula Redmond: And it's interesting because as someone who lives in London and as a parent, I experience very much the same problems that my clients bring.
[00:32:24] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's recognizing that you're human, recognizing the contextual factors are very present.
[00:32:33] Dr Paula Redmond: And it's more about how can you make the most, how can you find opportunities.
[00:32:38] Dr Paula Redmond: So if there is an opportunity, just see if you can grab that opportunity.
[00:32:43] Dr Paula Redmond: But I guess is just really becoming aware, being aware that as humans, you can just do the best that you can do.
[00:32:52] Dr Paula Redmond: So in my therapy, it's always bringing it back to recognizing that life is od.
[00:33:02] Dr Paula Redmond: And because we live, obviously we can't avoid the life events happening to us.
[00:33:09] Dr Paula Redmond: Again, cities means you might be exposed to crime more than small areas.
[00:33:19] Dr Paula Redmond: Not necessarily, but definitely that's something that people bring financial adversity in relation the cost of living.
[00:33:27] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's just really bringing it back to what matters to you and try to make the choices that you feel are the best in that moment, for that time of life, with the resources that you have in that context.
[00:33:44] Dr Paula Redmond: And then you can always review.
[00:33:45] Dr Paula Redmond: So there is a sense of, you can always think about what chunk of time, period of time, what stage of life you are and break it down and think about leaving the present as much as you can.
[00:34:01] Dr Paula Redmond: And you can always review, you can always choose differently, you can always review where you are and make new choices.
[00:34:10] Dr Paula Redmond: So this is what I do for myself, and this is very much the conversation that is almost sort of resonates with people normalize experiences of living in a city.
[00:34:23] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, thank you for that.
[00:34:26] Rehumanizing in a Dehumanizing System
[00:34:26] Dr Laura Villa: I was just thinking, Laura, as you're talking about some of the parallel themes, I'm making lots of assumptions about the type of work that your clients do, I guess, in my head, but just thinking about what might be different with the type of clients I see who are generally public sector workers.
[00:34:43] Dr Laura Villa: But I think what you're describing in your work, there's really kind of humanizing, rehumanizing process of getting people to really acknowledge and respond to their humanity, because I guess the systems they live and work in are so dehumanizing.
[00:35:06] Dr Laura Villa: And that's such a big theme, I think, in a huge organization like the NHS, where all the systems can make people just feel like a name on a rotor and a number and both patients and staff, and there can be just such a disconnect between what the expectations of the organization are and what people are feeling.
[00:35:34] Dr Laura Villa: And there's like it's a blindness because it's not seen.
[00:35:38] Dr Laura Villa: So for people to be able to see that of themselves, that their needs and responses are human.
[00:35:48] Dr Paula Redmond: Absolutely.
[00:35:53] Dr Paula Redmond: No, you're absolutely right.
[00:35:55] Dr Paula Redmond: I remember, if I bring it back to my own experience of the NHS, I think the moment I realized for me wasn't working so much is when they introduced payment by results.
[00:36:07] Dr Paula Redmond: So in my ideal therapy self, you offer services that work for as long as the client needs them.
[00:36:20] Dr Paula Redmond: Payment by results meant you see more contacts and clients became contacts.
[00:36:27] Dr Paula Redmond: So I guess it's really about how you then what matters to you and whether you feel that your values are really aligned with your work context.
[00:36:38] Dr Paula Redmond: So definitely I can see that applying across so many different sectors.
[00:36:46] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:36:48] Recognizing trauma in the workplace
[00:36:48] Dr Laura Villa: I guess the themes that crop up a lot in my work, which I think can get sort of muddled with burnout or the way people use the word burnout, is around trauma that's related to work experiences, whether that is being exposed chronically to other people's trauma or bullying and moral injury, which I guess fits in with what you're saying there about how when our work processes just really clash with our values and how painful that can be.
[00:37:29] Dr Laura Villa: And I'm curious about whether you find those themes as well in your work.
[00:37:38] Dr Laura Villa: I think sometimes people are talking about burnout when they're actually talking about trauma.
[00:37:45] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, no, absolutely.
[00:37:48] Dr Paula Redmond: That's a difficult one, isn't it, in terms of I work with trauma, and I guess when you start talking about trauma, it becomes such a complex also sort of conversation because as individuals, people can have their own trauma, they can bring developmental trauma that is retriggered at work because of the nature of a work environment.
[00:38:19] Dr Paula Redmond: So is recognizing that sometimes a particular work environment is very triggering for you and helping the person recognize what you're experiencing in the moment, where is it coming from?
[00:38:34] Dr Paula Redmond: But also becoming aware of this is a trigger for me because of something I've experienced, but then also being able to recognize this is also happening here, that is not okay.
[00:38:46] Dr Paula Redmond: So helping individuals to find the balance where this is mine or this environment of work is actually not good for me because I'm not aligned with their values because there is a particular culture that just, I find maybe too aggressive or I don't really find this is a place for me because I just really don't agree with the culture of the organization.
[00:39:14] Dr Paula Redmond: And I guess for us as psychologists is already a complex conversation, but we might help individuals who might not be aware of how the impact of trauma on everyday life and I guess helping them just become a little bit more aware of what is happening in the room right now to me can be extremely helpful, isn't it?
[00:39:39] Dr Paula Redmond: And if then they decide that that's not the environment for me, obviously this is a choice they need to make, but helping the person at least become aware of what is happening and why they might feel in a particular way and not understanding where is this coming from.
[00:39:56] Dr Paula Redmond: I think that's a very rewarding piece of work, isn't it, for us helping someone and keeping someone to just understand what is happening for them in a particular moment at work for them.
[00:40:09] Dr Laura Villa: And I'm thinking that you're talking about the parallel for us as practitioners who may be having, bringing our own stuff into this work and what that's like in private practice when you can be at risk of being isolated and not having the resources to have those conversations.
[00:40:30] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:40:33] Wendy Kendall: As I'm listening to two clinicians talk about this, I'm thinking with my occupational hat on about how then we encourage and inspire and support and coach people, psychologists in private practice, particularly in this as what we're talking about, to carry on being aware of when their own trauma is being triggered.
[00:41:02] Wendy Kendall: Obviously we have systems built in, like supervision and so on, but it's not unusual for me to speak to people coming from a clinical background, not only sometimes also different kinds of psychologists coming from occupational or educational background as well, who are saying, I can't continue to do that work.
[00:41:35] Wendy Kendall: It's not just emotional demands.
[00:41:38] Wendy Kendall: There's something about the way that their practice is operating that is now retraumatizing to them.
[00:41:45] Wendy Kendall: Now, they often have recognized the need themselves for therefore some support and they're getting their own therapy in.
[00:41:56] Wendy Kendall: What we start looking at then is right, how do we actually design a private practice that doesn't or that limits the retraumatizing whilst you're working with your therapist?
[00:42:10] Wendy Kendall: So when I think about my own experience of burnout when I was in private sector, I remember I was off work and the GP was absolutely determined not to sign me off as being okay to go back to work because there'd been no changes made to the working environment.
[00:42:27] Wendy Kendall: And I remember them saying, you're just going to go back like nothing has changed, you're going to go back into it and then you'll be back here, make them change.
[00:42:39] Wendy Kendall: They weren't putting it on me to make them change, but this whole thing of why go back when nothing has changed now at a point where we feel like we have enough internal resources to then think about, okay, how are we going to structure a business.
[00:42:59] Wendy Kendall: What's our plan for the future, for creating a practice then that isn't doing that thing, that isn't putting us over the line of traumatizing ourselves again?
[00:43:12] Wendy Kendall: I think that's both.
[00:43:14] Wendy Kendall: As you said earlier, Paula, it's kind of a responsibility that can feel like a lot to take on because now it's in our corner.
[00:43:24] Wendy Kendall: But at the same time it's that opportunity where actually, yeah, we do actually have control over that.
[00:43:33] Wendy Kendall: We do have the power to start making those decisions.
[00:43:37] Dr Laura Villa: Yeah, I had that exact conversation literally last week because I've had a really tough, traumatic personal time the last few months with multiple bereavements and I'm really needing to rethink my work.
[00:43:55] Dr Laura Villa: And I have an amazing supervisor.
[00:43:57] Dr Laura Villa: So that's the other thing that's brilliant.
[00:43:59] Dr Laura Villa: You can buy in who you want, get exactly who you need and who you want for whatever season you're in.
[00:44:06] Dr Laura Villa: That is amazing.
[00:44:08] Dr Laura Villa: You can't do that.
[00:44:09] Dr Laura Villa: You don't have that option in the NHS.
[00:44:13] Dr Laura Villa: You really helped me to think, well, what is it that you really need right now?
[00:44:16] Dr Laura Villa: And I think there's two paths for me, is about carving out that space to make those changes, to get the headspace to think what needs to be different and do it, have time to do it, and having, I guess, courage to pull back from some of those things that are hurting in order to carve out that space.
[00:44:47] Dr Laura Villa: And that was exactly some of the things that I was able to identify was reorganizing my working week so that there are focus times.
[00:45:01] Dr Laura Villa: And for me, your self led practice, Wendy, is brilliant sessions and I can actually change my client sessions to make sure I can go to those bits to carve out time to connect with people.
[00:45:21] Dr Laura Villa: But it's like sort of having that opportunity to borrow someone else's executive function to help you to make those changes.
[00:45:30] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:45:32] Working with ADHD and Executive Functioning in the Workplace
[00:45:32] Wendy Kendall: Laura, I'm super curious about your perspective about executive functioning because I know you've got a particular kind of specialism in this area.
[00:45:43] Wendy Kendall: I mean, we mentioned in the introduction that you also work with people who have ADHD in the workplace around their executive functioning.
[00:45:52] Wendy Kendall: So what did that bring up for you with what Paula was referring to there?
[00:45:59] Dr Paula Redmond: It's interesting, isn't it, how when working with clients, you have everything in mind and you give a lot of good instructions and you say, this is how you implement self monitoring your own private practice and actually monitoring your own executive functioning, including overwhelm emotional regulation.
[00:46:20] Dr Paula Redmond: In terms of.
[00:46:22] Dr Paula Redmond: There is a lot of work when you run a private practice in terms of timekeeping activation.
[00:46:32] Dr Paula Redmond: You have a plan making sure that the time slots that you have allocated for a particular task actually get used for that particular task.
[00:46:40] Dr Paula Redmond: Because if you are on your own business, obviously that is impacted on your own practice at the end of the month.
[00:46:47] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's just really thinking about actually in terms of executive functions, how self monitoring and making sure that what is needed to be done gets done.
[00:46:59] Dr Paula Redmond: But we know especially we would have a work also sometimes emotionally we might get, there are weeks that are easier than others, both because of our personal lives and both because of some type of work that we might be doing in that particular week.
[00:47:13] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's just really also recognizing how, again, finding that balance.
[00:47:20] Dr Paula Redmond: But it's interesting because with the secondary function, there is also so many new skills that we need to learn to be able to run our practices.
[00:47:28] Dr Paula Redmond: So we are clinicians, but then we need to do your own marketing agency and you run your own social media agency, and then it's about connection with others.
[00:47:38] Dr Paula Redmond: So as you're learning new skills, it's actually also about giving yourself the time.
[00:47:45] Dr Paula Redmond: And what I find is sometimes the time we all locate timekeeping, the time you allocate for a project, you might need more time and being okay with that.
[00:48:00] Dr Paula Redmond: But equally, we're talking about executive friendship so much, we end up talking about procrastination.
[00:48:08] Dr Paula Redmond: And sometimes certain tasks are new and they just need a longer time for you to acquire how to do them well.
[00:48:17] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's planning and organizing the different activities that our business requires.
[00:48:25] Dr Paula Redmond: It's not easy.
[00:48:27] Designing Practices Towards Balance Rather Than Burnout
[00:48:27] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, I think this is what I love about bringing psychologists in to talk about and think about the structure and function of our private practices, because I don't know anybody else who talks about executive function and the demands and executive function of running our private practices.
[00:48:50] Wendy Kendall: But it's such a valuable thing to think about.
[00:48:54] Wendy Kendall: How are we helping our own brains to operate, not just the holding space for clients or whatever, but actually the mechanisms almost.
[00:49:05] Wendy Kendall: So what systems can we bring in to help us with executive functioning and what structures and as you said, what routines and plans and so on?
[00:49:18] Wendy Kendall: I think that gets overlooked a lot.
[00:49:21] Dr Paula Redmond: Absolutely.
[00:49:22] Dr Paula Redmond: And also it's interesting because as individuals, we are all very different and we all have different skill sets.
[00:49:29] Dr Paula Redmond: And some people might be very good at sort of putting concert into writing, and you see colleagues who produce this amazing content, but not necessarily that's a skill that everybody has.
[00:49:40] Dr Paula Redmond: So I guess it's actually finding what your skills are and what's the best way for you to still sort of carry on your business.
[00:49:50] Dr Paula Redmond: But maybe in a way that is very personal to you, that can be very different from what other people do.
[00:49:58] Dr Paula Redmond: I guess because there is that comparison.
[00:50:02] Dr Paula Redmond: As a therapist, you work within your ramit and you work within your expertise.
[00:50:08] Dr Paula Redmond: When it's about running the business, that requires another skill set that we all have at different stages, aren't we?
[00:50:20] Wendy Kendall: So I'm just thinking to kind of bring it to some pragmatic levels.
[00:50:28] Wendy Kendall: What do you think you've done to design your practices to be places that lean towards balance rather than burnout?
[00:50:36] Wendy Kendall: What's made most difference for you, Paula?
[00:50:39] Wendy Kendall: I'm going to come to you.
[00:50:41] Dr Laura Villa: I think for me, the model that I hold in my head that is most, that I always go back to is the kind of CFT three systems of emotion model.
[00:50:50] Wendy Kendall: The threat, I don't know that one.
[00:50:53] Dr Laura Villa: Oh, it's the best three systems of emotion model from compassion focused therapy.
[00:51:00] Dr Laura Villa: Just very briefly, the idea that we have a threat system, a drive system and a soothing system.
[00:51:05] Dr Laura Villa: And I think we are so sort of socialized and rewarded.
[00:51:15] Dr Laura Villa: And evolutionarily it makes sense that threat is kind of our default position and our way of responding to that is through the drive system.
[00:51:25] Dr Laura Villa: And so we can just find ourselves oscillating between threat and drive.
[00:51:29] Dr Laura Villa: Threat and drive.
[00:51:30] Dr Laura Villa: We're scared something's happened.
[00:51:31] Dr Laura Villa: We make a plan and we try to fix it.
[00:51:37] Dr Laura Villa: And that can work very well.
[00:51:38] Dr Laura Villa: And I guess for people who've high functioning, that's worked really well, successful professionals.
[00:51:44] Dr Laura Villa: But the problem is that that can be exhausting.
[00:51:48] Dr Laura Villa: That is exhausting.
[00:51:49] Dr Laura Villa: If you're just between threat drive, threat drive, it's exhausting.
[00:51:53] Dr Laura Villa: And also there are lots of problems that can't be solved that we can't plan our way out of or problem solve our way out of grief, for example, just mess complexity.
[00:52:07] Dr Laura Villa: And if we neglect the soothing system, which we do so much, we are really at risk of being paralyzed and burnt out.
[00:52:16] Dr Laura Villa: That's how I see burnout, that kind of paralysis between threat and drive.
[00:52:23] Dr Laura Villa: So for me, just trying to strike a balance between carving out ways to support my drive system because I need that, because I'm running my own business, and if I'm going to pay the bills at the end of the day, I need to have a structure that allows me some focus, work time, the resources in terms of the other people that I need in, but actually never to forget that soothing bit.
[00:52:52] Dr Laura Villa: So for me, that is about being really clear about my working hours, being really clear about how I spend my downtime.
[00:53:05] Dr Laura Villa: Creativity is really important to me.
[00:53:07] Dr Laura Villa: So I've always got my crochet right here in case there's a pause in proceedings.
[00:53:15] Dr Laura Villa: Being able to have contact with nature.
[00:53:20] Dr Laura Villa: I say it like it's easy, but I have to constantly remind myself, constantly check in with that.
[00:53:27] Dr Laura Villa: And when I'm noticing that I'm in threat, my automatic response is drive to make a plan.
[00:53:33] Dr Laura Villa: And I have to pause and say, no, maybe you actually just need to breathe and contact someone who can support your nervous system or do something to support you.
[00:53:49] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, I love that.
[00:53:51] Dr Laura Villa: And I think that works in terms of work projects too.
[00:53:53] Dr Laura Villa: So there's some things that I do in my work that don't make me any money, but keep me going that are really important for that nurturing part.
[00:54:07] Wendy Kendall: Exactly.
[00:54:08] Wendy Kendall: And they're intangible value in our practices.
[00:54:12] Wendy Kendall: They are a form of value creation, because they.
[00:54:18] Wendy Kendall: I'm going to put it in a kind of economic context, they create capacity in the system from a regenerative point of view.
[00:54:30] Wendy Kendall: A lot of the trouble we get into when we create extractive organizations versus regenerative organizations is that we put a lot of emphasis on tangible value, like money we can get in the bank account or hours in the office, versus intangible value, like the resourcing that comes from listening to a podcast while it's doing your crocheting or something.
[00:55:02] Wendy Kendall: And a lot of the other source or intangible value, like the value of connecting with your colleagues over coffee or spending a day going, getting lunch with them or something.
[00:55:15] Wendy Kendall: And actually we need to move more generally towards valuing much more the intangible value of life versus the tangible value of the know, the extractive economy, at least.
[00:55:33] Creating a Restorative Workspace and Managing Time with Dr Laura Villa
[00:55:33] Wendy Kendall: Laura, for you, what are some of the things you've designed into your practice?
[00:55:38] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, it's really interesting.
[00:55:41] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah.
[00:55:41] Dr Paula Redmond: Like, Paula, the CFT model clearly is one that I have in mind.
[00:55:45] Dr Paula Redmond: And the Polyvego theory model, which is very similar in terms of very much thinking about are we in fight and flight?
[00:55:54] Dr Paula Redmond: Are we shutting down because it's too much?
[00:55:56] Dr Paula Redmond: And that's the sort of burnout feel or the need for connection.
[00:56:00] Dr Paula Redmond: So making sure that when you are in fight and flight and shut down, what are the tools?
[00:56:06] Dr Paula Redmond: What is needed here to bring me back up to connection?
[00:56:10] Dr Paula Redmond: And it's interesting, you were talking about what you were doing, and this is my little toolkit, which I actually show my clients.
[00:56:18] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's a little toolkit of connection that I have on my desk.
[00:56:22] Dr Paula Redmond: So you have the lavender smile.
[00:56:25] Dr Paula Redmond: Just giving a little sniff, really, where you have a little moment.
[00:56:31] Dr Paula Redmond: Little cream to self suit in your hands.
[00:56:34] Dr Paula Redmond: I have a couple of things of significance for me here and what I say to clients is like having a little kit on your desk can be so helpful when you have a moment.
[00:56:48] Dr Paula Redmond: It's really using the senses.
[00:56:50] Dr Paula Redmond: We have so much focus on thinking and brainstorming, problem solving.
[00:56:57] Dr Paula Redmond: And sometimes he's actually switching for people, especially at the desk, like I am most so many hours in a day, he's actually taking a little break.
[00:57:07] Dr Paula Redmond: He's not necessarily leaving the desk or of course, having alpha an hour is amazing and we all do that, but it's actually switching from the thinking to the bin and touching something that is self suiting, like for you, working hours.
[00:57:26] Dr Paula Redmond: So when people ask me if I work part time or full time, I still say I work part time.
[00:57:34] Dr Paula Redmond: In reality, I don't know whether it's full time or part time, but the luxury for me, because it's actually across the five days, but the luxury for me is feeling free in changing my diary.
[00:57:48] Dr Paula Redmond: So I have three days where my hours are pretty much set and I have two days where I know there is some flexibility and that could be admin time, meeting with colleagues, supervision, having a chat, but can also be going out.
[00:58:08] Dr Paula Redmond: And that really helps me also mentally in thinking that I'm not blocked in in a nine to five job.
[00:58:16] Dr Paula Redmond: And I know it's a luxury because not everyone can do it, but in choosing working from the NHS, in the NHS and moving to private practice, flexibility, managing my diary, I think, is exactly what keeps me.
[00:58:33] Dr Paula Redmond: It's just really helpful to me.
[00:58:35] Dr Paula Redmond: So it's probably what I enjoy the most when I think about what matters to me is being able to manage my time and have some flexibility.
[00:58:45] Dr Paula Redmond: So, yeah, that's doing your yoga, finding time to connect.
[00:58:52] Dr Paula Redmond: So all those activities.
[00:58:53] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, I love that.
[00:58:56] Wendy Kendall: Perfect.
[00:58:56] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah.
[00:58:57] Wendy Kendall: So I'm very mindful of time, which I feel like we're all kind of getting in the groove now and we're just kind of getting into the chats and it's all feeling very replenishing and restorative to me anyway.
[00:59:11] Navigating Private Practice and Burnout
[00:59:11] Wendy Kendall: But also thinking about kind of how we kind of summarize some of this for both of you.
[00:59:21] Wendy Kendall: What would you want practitioners to know about navigating private practice and burnout?
[00:59:28] Wendy Kendall: Paula, I'm going to come to you and then to you, Laura, please.
[00:59:33] Dr Laura Villa: I guess I'd want people to know that I think it's an ongoing kind of process and I love your idea, Wendy, of you know, that certainly, I think is a really lovely way to think about, know, we might have grand five year plans, but know, for me, my life revolves around half terms, six weeks.
[00:59:58] Dr Laura Villa: Like, what do I need?
[01:00:00] Dr Laura Villa: What's happening in my life, what's going on?
[01:00:04] Dr Laura Villa: And how can I use that, the gift of autonomy to support me so that work gives me more than it takes?
[01:00:15] Dr Laura Villa: I think for me, that's the kind of bottom line.
[01:00:17] Dr Laura Villa: And it's really difficult when you work in a field that you really care about, and that demands a lot of you to hold on to that idea.
[01:00:29] Dr Laura Villa: Like, how can you make sure that this is not extracting more from you than it's giving?
[01:00:37] Wendy Kendall: Exactly.
[01:00:39] Dr Laura Villa: And then I think setting up, as we've said, systems and people around you who can hold that for you when your executive function is shutting down because it all feels too much, for whatever reason, and building that in so that you're having regular contact with those resources, definitely love that.
[01:01:01] Wendy Kendall: That's really succinct.
[01:01:03] Wendy Kendall: That's the plan.
[01:01:05] Dr Paula Redmond: Lara, for, I mean, I think for what I would know, new clinicians or people who move to private practice, maybe now, would be to have an open mind.
[01:01:22] Dr Paula Redmond: The beauty, I think, is you can choose who you want to work with, you can train in your models, you can expand your practice as you wish, and you can always review.
[01:01:38] Dr Paula Redmond: So to have an open mind to how, as I was saying earlier, is we transform as individuals, and we transform in our practice, too.
[01:01:51] Dr Paula Redmond: So, yeah, just really be open to that.
[01:01:54] Dr Paula Redmond: And to, I think, the value of having colleagues to assess your colleagues when you need them, whether that's a friend, a peer, a supervisor, maybe the risk of isolation, but actually by connecting with others, that's really solvable.
[01:02:14] Dr Paula Redmond: But find your people.
[01:02:16] Dr Paula Redmond: Find your people in terms of your niche and clients.
[01:02:19] Dr Paula Redmond: Work with the client group that you love and connect with the people that work in the same way as you work and resonate with you.
[01:02:31] Dr Paula Redmond: Yeah, I think these are the two.
[01:02:33] Dr Paula Redmond: The freedom of doing that.
[01:02:39] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, I love that.
[01:02:40] Wendy Kendall: If I was to think about what I would want practitioners to know, I think it really reflects what both of you have said, which is coming back to this, giving yourself space regularly to say what you would absolutely love to do and what you would absolutely not love to do.
[01:03:03] Wendy Kendall: I don't know if you've ever come across these job descriptions that have a list of things that the job requires, and then at the end, it's got this magical clause, which is.
[01:03:14] Wendy Kendall: And everything else that your manager says you have to do.
[01:03:18] Wendy Kendall: Right.
[01:03:22] Wendy Kendall: That kind of principle, we seem to carry it through into our private practices, whereby it's almost like a way of shutting down our ability to say no to things in a job.
[01:03:37] Wendy Kendall: And then we somehow carry that principle across to our private practices and never really question it.
[01:03:43] Wendy Kendall: There's this should.
[01:03:44] Wendy Kendall: We should do these things.
[01:03:46] Wendy Kendall: And what I'd like to do is kind of scratch that out of the job description of private practice and really come back to, as you said, I love that description of the gift of autonomy as well, which is you have the right to say yes, and you have the right to say no in your private practice and kind know, shape it on that.
[01:04:14] Interview with Dr. Laura Villa
[01:04:14] Wendy Kendall: So thank you so much, Lara, for being here with us today.
[01:04:19] Wendy Kendall: I've so enjoyed speaking with you about this.
[01:04:22] Wendy Kendall: And I love your bowl is like a genius idea.
[01:04:26] Wendy Kendall: I think we're going to have to.
[01:04:29] Wendy Kendall: It's amazing.
[01:04:31] Wendy Kendall: I've got a scented candle at the moment, but sometimes I have a bit of a sniff at.
[01:04:36] Wendy Kendall: But I think a sensory bowl, it's taking it to the next level.
[01:04:43] Dr Paula Redmond: So I'm going to have to absolutely.
[01:04:45] Wendy Kendall: Come up around that.
[01:04:47] Wendy Kendall: Thanks so much, Lara.
[01:04:49] Dr Paula Redmond: Thank you for having me.
[01:04:51] Discussion with Dr. Laura Villa about their company
[01:04:51] Wendy Kendall: Pleasure.
[01:04:52] Wendy Kendall: All right then, so we'll have a little gap in the recording.
[01:04:55] Wendy Kendall: Lara, you can, if you like, leave the studio.
[01:05:02] Wendy Kendall: The only thing I would say if I remove you, what's going to happen is we record all the streams individually, and then what streamyard will do is it will ask your computer almost to upload the local recording that it was making on your computer.
[01:05:23] Wendy Kendall: Now, sometimes that happens very quickly and sometimes it's a little bit slow.
[01:05:28] Wendy Kendall: If you leave the studio before it's uploaded, we may need to just ask you to log in at some point and upload it if it's not done that.
[01:05:39] Wendy Kendall: But what we also learned is that I can't end the recording in order to then do this last bit with.
[01:05:53] Wendy Kendall: And because we have to start another studio, basically.
[01:05:56] Wendy Kendall: So if that makes sense.
[01:05:59] Wendy Kendall: Paula, stay here.
[01:06:00] Wendy Kendall: Lara, if you want to, I'm going to remove you and then you can leave the studio.
[01:06:06] Wendy Kendall: And I may need you to just kind of upload your recording afterwards.
[01:06:10] Dr Paula Redmond: And do I log off for completely?
[01:06:13] Wendy Kendall: I think you can do.
[01:06:15] Wendy Kendall: I get the sense from your Internet connection that it's been doing things pretty quickly.
[01:06:19] Wendy Kendall: So let's see how that goes.
[01:06:21] Wendy Kendall: All right, but I will speak to you soon.
[01:06:23] Wendy Kendall: Thanks so much.
[01:06:24] Dr Paula Redmond: I'll leave then.
[01:06:25] Dr Paula Redmond: Bye.
[01:06:25] Wendy Kendall: Okay, bye.
[01:06:28] Wendy Kendall: There we go.
[01:06:29] Discussion with Dr. Laura Villa
[01:06:29] Wendy Kendall: So do you want a minute?
[01:06:31] Wendy Kendall: How are you doing on time?
[01:06:32] Wendy Kendall: Do you want a minute to.
[01:06:35] Wendy Kendall: You're right for that.
[01:06:36] Wendy Kendall: A minute to just have a think about what were the main points that you took from the discussion.
[01:06:43] Wendy Kendall: I'm going to have a think about that, too.
[01:06:44] Wendy Kendall: I've made a couple of comments, and that's our last kind of five minutes, basically, at the end.
[01:06:52] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, it.
[01:08:00] Wendy Kendall: All right.
[01:08:01] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, good to.
[01:08:06] Supporting Mental Health: Addressing Burnout and Connection in the Workplace
[01:08:06] Wendy Kendall: Oh, so, Paula, what came up for you in that discussion?
[01:08:11] Wendy Kendall: What were the kind of main points that really struck you?
[01:08:15] Dr Laura Villa: I think it was really interesting just to think with, you know, the parallel processes.
[01:08:23] Dr Laura Villa: I'm always struck by that when you're working with clients who are struggling with burnout and overwhelm and how we are having our own parallel process alongside that.
[01:08:37] Dr Laura Villa: And the age old thing of we're really good at being compassionate and giving good advice to the people we care for, but terrible at taking that ourselves.
[01:08:49] Dr Laura Villa: And I think for me, there's something really core about connection here, both to other people in terms of colleagues for that support.
[01:09:07] Dr Laura Villa: And with Lara's kind of sensory bowl, there just something about connection to our humanity, our senses, the present moment, how we need to be sort of sprinkling that in through our day, as well as connections with other people.
[01:09:26] Dr Laura Villa: And also I was thinking something about connection to reality as well, like the reality that it is tough, this work is hard, whether you are employed or self employed, it is really hard.
[01:09:40] Dr Laura Villa: And I think we need to talk about, you know, I know when I was in the NHS, the idea of going into private practice was like, you're going to the dark side.
[01:09:52] Dr Laura Villa: I really had this huge moral conundrum of like, will anyone ever talk to me again?
[01:10:01] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, that's huge.
[01:10:05] Dr Laura Villa: But the reality is you're not making millions and exploiting people.
[01:10:13] Dr Laura Villa: It's hard work, it's hard graft, but you can often, I think, find ways of working that are even more in line with your values.
[01:10:23] Wendy Kendall: Yes, exactly.
[01:10:25] Dr Laura Villa: Being employed, but there are costs.
[01:10:29] Dr Laura Villa: There's no kind of free rides anywhere.
[01:10:33] Dr Laura Villa: And it does take resource and really thinking about what resource you need and that that will change as life happens.
[01:10:47] Wendy Kendall: Exactly.
[01:10:50] Embracing the Inclusive Framework of Multimodal Therapy
[01:10:50] Wendy Kendall: I think one of the things that I really took from this as well, and that just occurred to me as you were talking about the different sensory, bringing in different senses, bringing know all the different domains that we talk.
[01:11:07] Wendy Kendall: You know, you guys were talking about threat, drive, soothe, Lauer mentioned polyvagal system and so on.
[01:11:15] Wendy Kendall: Me, I often think about, and what often strikes me is when we're thinking about also diversifying our practices, one of the joyful things that can happen with that is that different parts of ourselves can play a role in delivering services.
[01:11:31] Wendy Kendall: So it's not only the highly empathetic parts of ourselves that are having to show up for clients every day.
[01:11:38] Wendy Kendall: But it's also.
[01:11:40] Wendy Kendall: Or the highly analytical parts or whatever.
[01:11:43] Wendy Kendall: It's also creative parts, playful parts and so on.
[01:11:49] Wendy Kendall: So just thinking about having that more inclusive framework for ourselves, and that's eminently practical, that's not dependent on a level of privilege, or at least I'm not getting the sense that it is.
[01:12:10] Wendy Kendall: I'm really happy if someone wants to kind of challenge me on that.
[01:12:12] Wendy Kendall: But just allowing ourselves the space to embrace more of who we are, I think, is something that is at know, within our scope, within our.
[01:12:27] The Rehumanizing Experience of Independent Practice
[01:12:27] Wendy Kendall: And the other thing that really struck me in what both Lara and you were talking about is how at a big level, our experience can be having.
[01:12:44] Wendy Kendall: Our experience can be a kind of dehumanizing system.
[01:12:50] Wendy Kendall: So we've been in dehumanizing workplaces or dehumanizing environments which leave us feeling stripped.
[01:13:00] Wendy Kendall: And actually this context of independent practice can become a rehumanizing experience for ourselves.
[01:13:10] Wendy Kendall: So we can rehumanize our workplace and rehumanize our life.
[01:13:16] Wendy Kendall: And actually, in that way, it then becomes a more humanized context for people where they need some of that as well, perhaps.
[01:13:27] Dr Laura Villa: Yeah.
[01:13:28] Dr Laura Villa: And I think being human, it's hard.
[01:13:34] Dr Laura Villa: There's suffering and pain that comes along with that, but I think it means that there's space to respond to that.
[01:13:42] Dr Laura Villa: Yes.
[01:13:43] Dr Laura Villa: And that is just so valuable.
[01:13:49] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[01:13:50] Wendy Kendall: And it's also really central to our values as psychologists.
[01:13:53] Wendy Kendall: I think being a psychologist is not about being a place of toxic positivity.
[01:14:01] Wendy Kendall: It's about sitting with the difficult things, about addressing the stuff that's challenging, about being human.
[01:14:09] Wendy Kendall: Love it.
[01:14:11] Wendy Kendall: Thank you so much for hosting this session with me today.
[01:14:15] Wendy Kendall: It's been really a pleasure.
[01:14:17] Dr Laura Villa: Thank you for having me.
[01:14:20] Interview with Dr. Laura Villa on Company News
[01:14:20] Wendy Kendall: That's great.
[01:14:21] Wendy Kendall: So for all of our listeners, we will also leave the details of where you can find Dr.
[01:14:30] Wendy Kendall: Lara Villa and Dr.
[01:14:31] Wendy Kendall: Paula Redmond out there on the interweb, as they say.
[01:14:37] Wendy Kendall: And thanks to all of you for being here today.
[01:14:42] Wendy Kendall: And we hope that you enjoyed this episode and that you also got a lot out of it.
[01:14:47] Wendy Kendall: Thanks a lot.
[01:14:50] Wendy Kendall: There we go.
[01:14:52] Dr Paula Redmond: Bye.
