00:00:02 Shifting Your Relationship with Money in Private Practice
[00:00:02] Wendy Kendall: Hello and welcome to the inspiring psychologist podcast and in this episode we are talking about your financial well-being in private practice and how we can shift our relationship with money in our private practice. We're going to delve into this complex relationship that psychologists and therapists tend to have with their finances and with the whole topic of, how we relate to money and earning money and making money in our private practices. And what I hope is that by the end of this conversation, we can have some insights on how we can nurture a healthier and more empowering approach to thinking about how we earn money as psychologists and therapists. I think this is such an important topic for us to discuss in private practice because our relationship with money is one of the very first challenges that we come across when it when we contemplate even having a private practice. You know, questions like, will I earn any money?
00:01:22 Exploring the Healing Potential of Financial Well-Being in Private Practice
[00:01:22] Wendy Kendall: You know, they cut right to the existential kind of center of our practice. They're also one of the first things we have to tackle when we think about things like, will I get any clients, how much am I gonna charge them? How what does my business model look like? What does my business plan look like? You know, money is really at the heart of that.
[00:01:44] Wendy Kendall: And I think it's also one of the biggest challenges we have in our private practice. So when we think about where all the messages and the ideas that we get about money come from, you know, there's a lot of stuff there that comes down to our family of origin, you know, intergenerational burdens, also the culture and even the class that we've perhaps grown up in. And I feel like private practice is also sorry. Financial well-being in our private practice is also one of the most enduring challenges because it never really goes away. You know, it follows us through the ups and downs of our private practices.
[00:02:28] Wendy Kendall: And so for me when I'm thinking about, the healing potential of private practice, Because of the size and scale and scope of our challenges around earning money and financial well-being, it feels as though this is potentially even an enormous, area of potential for us to, heal from, some of those messages or some of those burdens that we've picked up. And it can be incredibly empowering to develop a different relationship with money, with finances, with earning money, by, by kind of thinking about this this whole topic. So, today on the podcast I'm welcoming 2 guests. First of all, I'm going to be joined by Doctor. Matt Cunliffe, who is a chartered sports and exercise psychologist who specializes in high performance mindset and coaching.
[00:03:31] Wendy Kendall: And Matt and I have had multiple conversations because he also lectures and mentors aspiring sports psychologists who are setting out on their careers and, you know, this topic of how to earn money as a sports psychologist is is also, you know, a central topic for them too. And later on in the podcast we'll be joined by Andrea Rotundo, who is a specialist in supporting therapists in private practice to gain simple but powerful knowledge from the numbers in their business. Andrea started out as a psychology graduate and is a military spouse, and so she was moving around a lot, and therefore she set up LiquidSense Bookkeeping to help therapists in their private practice to feel more empowered about the story that the numbers were telling them. And so I think that's a really interesting way of perhaps feeling more empowered. So, with with all that said, I'd like to welcome doctor Matt Cunliffe, first of all, to the podcast.
00:04:40 Dr. Matthew Cunliffe's Journey to Becoming a Chartered Sports and Exercise Psychologist and Entrepreneur
[00:04:40] Wendy Kendall: Hey, Wendy. How are you doing, Matt?
[00:04:42] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Hi. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm really good. Thanks.
[00:04:46] Wendy Kendall: Very well. It's good to see you. It's good to be on this, podcast episode. Thanks for thanks for volunteering.
[00:04:53] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. That's alright. It's good to, it's good to chat again. It's been, been a bit of a while since you've had a good chat. So, yeah, it'd be good to chat.
[00:04:58] Wendy Kendall: It is. Exactly. So, first of all, I wanted to ask you about, like, a little bit of your own story about, you know, becoming a chartered sports and exercise psychologist, and then about setting up your own business and, you know, this story of financial well-being, how it kind of played out in your, in your own life.
00:05:26 Dr. Matthew Cunliffe and Andrea Rotundo discuss their journey in private practice
[00:05:26] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. Okay. So I I started practicing as a sport and exercise psychologist straight from my master's degree. 2012, that was. So we go through the kind of stage 2 process.
[00:05:40] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And that's when I started the stage 2 process in 2012. I finished it in 20 14, 2015, something like that. And there's no in reality, in in sports psychology specifically, there's there's not really any official jobs. So there there is certain jobs with teams and there's certainly now, there's much more in the way of advertised positions in, in national teams a lot of the time, and and international teams, ultimately professional sport and international sport. But lower down the level is for people who are just training or just come out of their master's degree.
[00:06:19] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: The likelihood of somebody getting that kind of role is pretty low. So in in essence, we pretty much, as sports sites, have to go into independent practice almost straight away. So it's
[00:06:31] Wendy Kendall: In order to get your chartership?
[00:06:33] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: In order to get your chartership. So, yeah, you can't, the the you can't, you can't get the chartership without clients. You can't get clients without having an independent practice unless you, you know, it's very rare for somebody to get a job straight out of a master's degree working with, working with either like the UK Institute of Sport or Team of Britain, Paralympics, or even something.
[00:06:53] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:06:54] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So I went through childship as an independent practitioner. I started up straight away. Going through this idea of trying to get clients as a 22 year old. So, fresh out of master degree, literally no business business knowledge whatsoever. I've never been been in business at all.
[00:07:11] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So I had to learn everything from scratch. Yeah. And I made a good chunk of mistakes throughout. No. I mean, I still make them, but, I make a made a good chunk of mistakes at the beginning for sure in terms of kind of understanding it to get how we get clients.
[00:07:28] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And, actually, it took me until when was the COVID pandemic? So that was what? 2021?
[00:07:34] Wendy Kendall: 2020.
[00:07:35] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: 2020. So it took me really
[00:07:37] Wendy Kendall: about it. Yeah.
[00:07:39] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: It'd be really until sort of 2020, 2021 until I really started getting comfortable with what I was doing, what I was offering my clients, what value I was bringing to the table. I think we had a conversation around them as well. Yes. Yeah. There was a few other bits and pieces that I was thinking about in terms of, like I came across a really cheap training course thinking about what your psychology curriculum is like.
[00:08:07] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: You know, I started looking at things like DBT dialectical behavior therapy and the kind of structure that a curriculum that was presented within DBT was, was starting to kinda trigger some thoughts around how do I package all of this up into something that looks coherent and people will buy and know what they're getting from me.
[00:08:36] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And it took it took a lot of brainstorming, and a lot of time thinking about how that would come together and and really classify what what I do for or or how I kinda help people or what I can almost, I don't know. I tend to use the word guarantee, but what I can sort of show that you're gonna be able to do once you finish working with me.
[00:09:06] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: It took a long time to get to that point. So, yeah, I think that's pretty much That's kind of my journey until now.
[00:09:13] Wendy Kendall: So when when you were kind of starting out as a as a 22 year old and as you said, you know, making all those mistakes, can you recall what I mean, it's not that long ago, right? When I say cut, can you recall it's kind of 10 years ago or so.
[00:09:29] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yes it's
[00:09:30] Wendy Kendall: not like you know when you get really old like me Matt and it's like 30 years ago that you But, yeah, so, you know, thinking about when you were starting out like that, and, you know, what messages had you received about that situation you were going into that, you know, there's no jobs for you? So have at it, Matt.
[00:09:55] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. So that was definitely one of the messages. The, the the the it's it's gonna be hard. And to be perfectly honest, when I have trainees come through, I'm now trainees come through now, I'm very, very clear on how difficult it is to to start start out. I as a new business, and I'm very clear with people that that finding clients to work with is probably gonna be your biggest challenge as a as a newly qualified or even an sort of a new trainee sports psychologist.
[00:10:25] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So, yeah, that was definitely one of the messages I was given. Charging for your work, you know, where do
[00:10:31] Wendy Kendall: you even Should you charge?
[00:10:33] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Well How
[00:10:34] Wendy Kendall: can you not charge, though?
[00:10:35] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: The ridiculousness of this. So I have a I have very, very strong opinions on this, and I've been very
[00:10:41] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Very vocal in the profession for many, many years on should we charge and how much should we charge. So my my flat response to this is we should not be doing voluntary work as, as train especially as trainee psychologists because, you know, they can't afford it anyway. Right?
[00:11:01] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:03] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I think I think your pro bono work should be done by your senior psychologists who have the time and have the, sort of financial financial backing to do that pro bono work, to give back to their communities. And and I think that the kind of junior psychologist should be and the newest psychologist, neophyte, should be, should be certainly charging from their work from day 1. I genuinely I've had this argument with loads of people over the years that it devalues our profession. Yeah. I think I think it devalues the work that a sports psychologist does.
[00:11:40] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I think sports' notorious for badly play badly paying their sports scientists anyway.
[00:11:45] Wendy Kendall: Yes. There's very few people who are, like, at the absolute top of the pyramid for Yeah. Kind of earnings in sport anyway.
[00:11:55] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. The it's it's sports science. Absolutely. The the the top of the top of the triangle is, you know, is very small. So, yeah, I'm very vocal on this that we should be charging for our work.
[00:12:08] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: The at the minimum, if we're going to do unpaid work, then there has to be something else that we're getting out of it. And it can't just be done for the sake of doing it. So, but that, you know, that the message that I got when I started, going back to your original question, you know, it was we do unpaid work. We, you know, we don't get paid for our work. You know, I I came across some people who were senior academics, senior sports psychologists in the profession who were doing work for free.
[00:12:40] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And I was sitting there going, like, how how can you just well, the the way they justify it is by being academics. Right? It's by by working at a university. And then that's the that's the kind of way that they pay their bills. And Yeah.
[00:12:57] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. And they and they did
[00:12:58] Wendy Kendall: And did you know back then when you were hearing those messages, like, what was the impact that those messages had on you? Did it change your mind, or were you already feeling like, you know, I'm not buying that?
[00:13:10] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. I mean, I don't buy I I I certainly don't buy it now, and I've kind of I I I I wouldn't necessarily say I didn't buy it then. I'm not too sure where I sat sat with it because I wasn't certainly didn't have the the strong opinions about it now that I do. But I always went out and I'm I always went out and charged for my work. Even if it was a small nominal amount, it was always there was always a a fee that was attached to the work.
[00:13:36] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And then I compare it to consigned a kind of some of my colleagues who didn't charge for their work early on. And you kind of we both ended up almost at the same place. We're both, you know, qualified or or but, you know, did they get better experiences early on because they were potentially willing to give it away for no no money? Or did I get better experiences because I was adamant about those boundaries? It's hard to kind of wait look back and weigh it up, but, but, certainly, it was a it was a discussion that was being had.
[00:14:13] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So, I guess I'm when I think back to, you know, how private practice was positioned for me as an occupational psychologist, I fully did net or never wanted to go into private practice. Like, if you'd have asked me at the age of 21, 22, are you going to run your own business?
[00:14:43] Wendy Kendall: I'd have been like, no way. Not ever. Not a chance. We we I say that now, and it's, like, wild to me, but I know that that was not on the cards for me because I had very particular kind of experiences growing up with parents that had no money about getting a secure job. And the idea of you know, still I mean, I was leaving my master's degree in 1996, and the idea of, going into and having a, you know, a secure job and a job for life and these kinds of things was still quite a a kind of positive thing that you could sign up for.
[00:15:27] Wendy Kendall: And so I ended up going into my private practice for different reasons. 1, because I I'd found that working in organizations could be quite toxic, because I also wanted more balance for being able to raise a young family. And because we were we were also gonna move overseas and I'd run out of kind of promotion opportunities working for the Ministry of Defence for 7 years. You know, there there's just not that many other roles to go to. And so I I had no clue how to make a practice work where I could earn money.
[00:16:07] Wendy Kendall: But I'm I'm kind of curious from your experience, was there anything, like, in your background that was influencing your perspective on going into private practice and earning some money?
[00:16:21] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: No. It was pretty much the only option that was available. Right? So there wasn't, I mean, I definitely got the same messaging around secure jobs and job security and all things like that. I don't tend to play well with other people.
[00:16:36] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Is is kind of, kind of the the the way I I I rob most days. And and I think Nikkita talks about, like, having an unemployed
[00:16:46] Wendy Kendall: Mikael off.
[00:16:47] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. He talks about having a
[00:16:48] Wendy Kendall: colleague of ours.
[00:16:50] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And, an unemployable personality. I think he's got that in his new book.
[00:16:53] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:54] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And I thought that was quite funny when he said that. But, I certainly find find the
[00:16:59] Wendy Kendall: I resonate with that as well.
[00:17:01] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I enjoy it. Yeah. I enjoy the freedom that we have in private practice. I enjoy I enjoy the fact that I can always make more money. Right?
[00:17:10] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So if if there's no ways that opportunity somewhere to do something that is gonna allow me that that financial freedom. Yeah. You know, if I do find that I've got something coming up or I wanna do something, I can go, well, okay. What what project or what, what what product can I put together that can allow me to earn the money to do that? So, I kind of use
[00:17:32] Wendy Kendall: use the
[00:17:33] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: kind of freedom and creativity of private practice to kinda allow me to do things, which I found quite nice. But in in terms of my background, like I said, I went through university. I was a sport coach through university. I worked for the ambulance service for a little while. I had that job that I mean, that's that's a job.
[00:17:55] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Right? Yeah. 12 hour shifts, 4 days a week is is is is tough. Yeah. Certainly something I I I would never go back to.
[00:18:08] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:09] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So in terms of my background, not so much, but there's certainly way more benefits to doing it, I find, than than to not.
[00:18:17] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Definitely. Well, I'd like to welcome to the podcast now Andrea Rotundo, and she's, hi Andrea.
00:18:27 Exploring the Intersection of Psychology and Small Business
[00:18:27] Wendy Kendall: It's good to see you. Hi. So Andrea, we were just talking about our kind of back stories a little bit and this, you know, this whole topic of how we come into small businesses and the kind of messages that we receive around either earning money in a small business or earning money as a psychologist, but also could you, I gave a little bit of, an introduction to you at the start of the podcast, but, could you, for the benefit of listeners, kind of unpack that a little bit more? Because, obviously, you know more about you than me. Yes.
00:19:06 Empowering Private Practice Owners in Their Relationship with Money and Numbers
[00:19:06] Andrea Rotondo: Thank you so much for having me. As you were saying, I I I'm a business owner as well, a small business owner. And through my business, what I do is I help private practice owners, to create systems for their finances so that it can be something that kind of just runs on its own, and it can be flexible to grow. Like doctor Matt was saying, like, if I wanna make more money, I can make more money, and sometimes that looks different avenues or different streams of income within your practice. So creating those systems from the get go or at any given point to allow the flow of money to be to be able to give you the information that you need.
[00:19:52] Andrea Rotondo: Because the thing with financial systems is that people, especially in private practice where the money talk is not really a talk, it's kind of like it just happens, you know, like, sure you are going to private practice to make money, but there's no coaching around finances or creating your business. It's just it's just a given, but there's no direction on how to do that. So when you create those systems Yeah. Like I said, from the beginning or any given point in your journey in your practice, then you're able to get the result of that, which is to see how you're managing your finances. Because if there's no tracking, if there's no understanding at your level as the owner, there's no way for you to understand which areas you're being really good at and to perpetuate those or to see what areas you're lacking, and we have to address them and we have to change them because the goal is profit, but then what else is beyond that?
[00:20:58] Andrea Rotondo: It's not just the profit. It's what that profit gives you, and that is so unique to everybody. So, again, putting those systems can in a matter that's flexible enough to incorporate what you want for your practice.
[00:21:15] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And I remember our first conversation, Andrea, because, we, I think I pinged you a a message over LinkedIn or something because you were talking about empowering private practice owners in their relationship with their numbers in their practice and I just loved that positioning. 1, it's a really great positioning and the other thing was there is so much of this that is about the relationship we have either with numbers and maths and, you know, those kinds of topics, finances. It involves, you know, all these complicated spreadsheets and things. Some of us are more complicate, confident with that than others, but then just, you know, tying elements of our self esteem, our self identity, what we like to spend our money on.
[00:22:07] Wendy Kendall: And, you know, it's kind of confronting when you see that in the numbers. Right?
[00:22:11] Andrea Rotondo: Oh, yeah. Like, the the black the the numbers are so black and white. It's a list of categories with numbers next to them. And the funny thing about it is that we tend to think that we made more than what we really did, and then we think that we tend to think that we spend less than what we really think. And coming you know, having those numbers in front of you, and you're like, oh, that's a lot.
[00:22:39] Andrea Rotondo: Or in some cases and and you can you guys can tell me if I'm wrong. From from my from my experience, I rarely, if never, see a private practice owner that is spending lavishly and then, you know, just frivolously and shamelessly. It's this it tends to be the other way. It tends to be, I don't wanna spend. I'm gonna save all my money.
[00:23:03] Andrea Rotondo: I haven't paid myself. And that is also very confronting. Because from that, you can ask yourself, why am I doing this? You know, why am I not paying myself? Why?
[00:23:16] Andrea Rotondo: It just can go so many layers underneath that. And, again, it's all because of those numbers in front of you. And having to get or getting to those numbers tends to be what pushes people away from that because it's that process of things setting things up and doing the math. You know, math, even though it's not complicated math, people are like, I don't wanna do this. I'm not good at numbers.
[00:23:41] Andrea Rotondo: And the mistake is that people think that because you're not good with numbers and you're not good with math with with money. And it's 2 completely separate things. Money is money and math is math. Sure, it's numbers, but it's 2 different skills. And just because you were not good with math in school or you don't like math, doesn't mean that you're not gonna be good with money at all.
[00:24:05] Andrea Rotondo: It's like I said, it's different things. So in a way, that is very empowering, like you were saying, and motivating in a way like, oh, okay. You know, I can still be bad at math, but I can sit but I can be good with my money.
[00:24:20] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. So I noticed, Matt, you were kind of nodding as as Andrea was speaking there. Are there any aspects of what she was, talking about that kind of strike a a bone for you?
[00:24:34] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I I there was a few things in there around, sort of you never come across a psychologist that's spending lavishly. Right? I thought that was quite quite an interesting point. I think we generally, as a profession, we're quite quite, sort of I I find psychologists quite anxious a lot. I don't know if anyone like, we're we're quite a cautious bunch, let's say.
[00:24:57] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. I think that's fair. I think that's fair to say. I think we're we're reasonably cautious as a group. I feel for that
[00:25:04] Wendy Kendall: I think we get sent a lot of messages about safety. Yeah. So when you think about, you know, all the ways in which we are supposed to practice safely, keep our clients safe, you know, there's a lot of this kind of stuff around boundaries that is about monitoring and, you know, monitoring boundaries and and looking after boundaries. And I think from that, we that can kind of maybe even with the additional kind of stories that we absorb around money can kinda hype up the anxiety a little bit about it.
[00:25:42] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. That would that would resonate pretty well.
[00:25:46] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So So, Andrea, for you, how come you got into this business?
[00:25:54] Andrea Rotondo: I love that question. I there's two sides of it. So growing growing up, I always helped my dad with his business. So looking at money and the movement of money was never something that made me nervous. It made me think that
[00:26:13] Wendy Kendall: Right.
[00:26:14] Andrea Rotondo: That I can do that. And as I was going to school for psychology, my goal was actually to, be a psychologist and then plans had to change. I realized that I was really good at managing finances, and it was something that I would love to be in a position to help somebody else because that way. I know that finances is one of the biggest reasons for conflict, whether it's with your partner or with your business partner or the reason why finance why businesses fail. So I knew that I had that skill and that I could present it in a way that it's approachable, that it's not somebody looking down at you and yelling at you.
[00:27:00] Andrea Rotondo: I had some recently, somebody told me my last bookkeeper was yelling at me for 20 minutes for not knowing this. And I was like, unacceptable.
[00:27:07] Andrea Rotondo: Unacceptable. I would never do that. So kind of, like, grouping those skills and what I wanted to do, because I'm very much mission driven as well, like, cheesy and, you know, like, I wanna leave the world better than I find the than I found it kind of thing. I merged that.
[00:27:25] Wendy Kendall: That's still the psychologist spirit.
[00:27:27] Andrea Rotondo: Right? And just wanting to serve somebody else and that, like, snowball effect of if I help you be better at managing your finances, you're going to show up better for your clients. You're going to go home and not have to worry about that I pay my bills. Will I have enough? Because it's all related to each other, especially with private practice owners.
[00:27:53] Andrea Rotondo: That the pay that they get from there is what they bring home. Some of them have partners, some of them don't, but it's still that's part of their livelihood and how they make their living. So I knew that I wanted to help this group of people because I love the the the service that you provide. So from the get go, when I decided that this is what this is what I was going to do, I had this industry in in in mind. And I never looked back because when I started doing it, I under like, I heard from, first, you know, from clients and from peep like, conversations like this, Hey.
[00:28:34] Andrea Rotondo: We're struggling with this. We don't know this makes us anxious. That that's that is a word that I hear all the time. Money makes me anxious. And I knew like, I was sold.
[00:28:45] Andrea Rotondo: I was, like, I'm in the right place. I think this is what I wanna do. So and here I am. Yeah.
[00:28:51] Wendy Kendall: Yes. Fabulous. And and what do you think it is? So, Matt, you also mentioned, the anxiety thing that perhaps as professionals, maybe there's something about us, something about our professional training as well, perhaps. What is it that makes our financial well-being and our relationship with money a challenge for psychologists and therapists?
[00:29:18] Wendy Kendall: So, you know, is it more of a challenge for us than others? What do you think? Matt, I'm going to come to you and jump on you.
00:29:30 Challenges Faced by Psychologists in the Business Aspect
[00:29:30] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: What what do I think makes it challenging? Okay. I don't I think we certainly don't talk about it in our training. I mean Yes. I I know for a fact, you know, I when I teach our MSc sports psychology students, we very very rarely talk about the business aspect of, like, being a psychologist.
[00:29:52] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: We talk a lot about how to use a therapeutic model, how to use CBTMI, how to use, you know, a theory or whatever. And we talk talk a lot about how to do presentations and write essays, but very rarely do we talk about, you know, how to do some marketing. And, actually, the marketing training that I have done through, through the various organizations or that has been set up by various organizations has been mostly an academic talking about theories of marketing, which was about as useful as you can imagine it, to be perfectly honest. I've never been to one of those kind of think the best conversation I've ever had was with you, Wendy, and then that kind of kind of drove a lot of the the decisions I made moving forward. Oh, yeah.
[00:30:41] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So I don't think it covered at all in try in especially in the training that I've been through.
[00:30:46] Wendy Kendall: And, also, I mean, it's so fundamental, and you're I mean, I love how you put your finger on it there because in our master's degrees and in our training I mean, you know, I'm sure it's the same in the US, Andrea. Like, this training costs us a bunch of money. Right? Like, we know how much the training is costing us, and yet we don't talk about how to value our services and how to turn that value into a financial income and that is that's like the other side of the equation and yet we don't talk about it.
[00:31:25] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And and and on top of that, how do we take somebody from an initial contact through that process to the sale at the end and then the continued working from that. Yet, we are experts in behavior change and pretty much our entire job is to take somebody from point a to point b, where change happens. No. No. Excuse.
[00:31:47] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I know you've worked through the the tranatheoretical model, Wendy, in in some of those works that you've done. And I I talk about that in motivational interviewing all the time. And you sit and go, well, we're experts in this, yet we we maybe feel a bit uncomfortable in using it in that sphere. And and the second part of your question was around, you know, is this more is this a problem for other professions as well or is this just a psychology problem? I've had so many conversations with, like, execs and organizations and, you know, if you give some some of the people in sort of hedge funds and stuff that I've worked with, if you offer them a free sample of something that they just think is not very good, they're just not interested.
[00:32:29] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: They want to pay for it. They they they expect things to cost money if they are good quality. So, you know, if you're if you are offering quality, they're expecting a similar price tag to hit to to become across with that. And that was one of the biggest learning curves I went through.
[00:32:48] Wendy Kendall: Yes. Yeah. In fact, I can speak to that as well. Andrea, what about you in the USA context? I mean, I know in the UK, I think one of the things that comes up for us generally as psychologists is that that there is a bit more of a relationship with this idea of, you know, because of the National Health Service, the especially our clinical and counseling colleagues, initially train within the NHS and then they, you know, they have this ideal around universal provision of mental health care, which is free at the point of of service.
[00:33:30] Wendy Kendall: And so I think some of that in our culture comes into our practices where we feel like we should be able to provide at least therapeutic support without people having to pay for it up front. And I know that there's different, setups within the US, but for for you, how do you see that kind of you know, is there a particular challenge for psychologists and therapists in the US in terms of their profession and their values and
[00:34:00] Andrea Rotondo: so on? Yeah. I think what doctor Matt was correct that in school, you're not learning those skills. There's no conversation about this is what you're learning, and this is how you're going to put it into practice in the business perspective. And I Yeah.
[00:34:20] Andrea Rotondo: Heard from many different, therapists and psychologists say that what they hear in the in their from their professors or from colleagues is that you don't go into this profession to make money. That's kind of, like, the concept that you receive. So even before you're actually practicing, you're hearing from different people that you look up to that are your mentors saying things like, well, if you wanna make money, you're in the wrong place. You should do something else because there's no money in this. So no not only you you're starting from a lower or from from a different starting point because you already know or you have been told that you can't make money here or that you won't make money here.
[00:35:09] Andrea Rotondo: And both of those concepts are already bringing you down, are already holding you back, are already cutting a limit on what you want to do. There's no conversation about setting up your fees. Usually, somebody is working in an agency, and then they start their own practice, and they think that their revenue goal should be the same. But then it's kinda like the anatomy of the fee. It's so different if you're an employee than if you're the business owner because now you have other expenses.
[00:35:40] Andrea Rotondo: Taxes are different. So there's more that should go on top of that fee that you were previously getting paid kinda like on an hourly basis. And also the different cultural backgrounds that we have. There are so many cultures, mixing around me. And even myself, I am an immigrant.
[00:36:02] Andrea Rotondo: I I was born in Ecuador. I moved to the US when I was a teenager. The concepts and the experiences that I had growing up with money, in a way, are so different than here in the United States that it kinda puts me at a disadvantage because I'm starting behind. I'm already like, my starting point is different from somebody else. And because we have so many different cultures and, again, so many different beliefs that are rooted in the cultures that that surround us, that will also play an impact because you feel responsible depending on on how you grow up or the expectations that that your family has, for example, from you.
[00:36:47] Andrea Rotondo: Well, if you make more money than somebody else in your family, you're you're the one that we will go to for any need. Yeah. Or even if they wouldn't necessarily go up to you and ask you, you feel that responsibility. So then again, that's another point to bring into the the making the money. Should I should I make money?
00:37:12 Exploring the Challenges of Setting Fees in Psychology Practices
[00:37:12] Andrea Rotondo: Because then I feel guilty that I'm making more than somebody else. Or Yes. Because of the the usually, like you were saying before, you're very cautious, but as but also very giving. So if somebody next to you meets something that's so hard, this is also that I've what I've seen is it's very hard for therapists to say, no. No.
[00:37:37] Andrea Rotondo: I'm not going to lower my feet. This is my feet. So there is scaling, sliding scales for people that can't afford the service, where you don't see that Yeah. Anywhere else. I I mean, there there I'm sure that there could be other places, but I don't.
[00:37:53] Andrea Rotondo: I haven't gone personally to a doctor that will tell me, how much can you afford today? Okay. Pay me what you can. Quite. That is common with therapists over here.
[00:38:05] Andrea Rotondo: So I think that it's just these, like, money stories that that are part of all of us, whether you're a therapist or not. But because of those concepts that are being told, also, as you're preparing to become a a therapist, I think that that even solidifies that even more in putting that limit as to how much you can or should make and could even potentially even shame you if you are one of the therapists that is charging more. It's kinda like, oh, you're you're not a real psychologist. At least, again, that's what I've I've been told or heard from other psychologists in the space.
[00:38:47] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I know, Matt, when we were talking earlier about expectations that trainees coming out of their master's degrees who are still doing their chartership process, which is a little bit like the licensing process, in the USA, You know there there's an expectation Matt was describing that around offering services for free. And, Matt, you were saying it should be the inverse.
[00:39:14] Wendy Kendall: It should be the people who, if it's gonna be anybody, why not the, you know, more senior people? Why the trainees who have to come out and, and kind of, you know, offer things for for free in order to get experience. So, Matt, when we're thinking about, these kind of money stories coming into practice and that idea of shaming and how much should you earn. Did you see have you seen any reflections of that kind of discussion also in the area of sports and exercise psychology? I'm really curious about that, whether it's across all areas of psychology or if it's concentrated in specific areas.
[00:39:59] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Well, I've I I it it should go even worse than that. I had, I had an assessor for one of my supervisees give some feedback to say that they shouldn't even be doing one to one work at the moment. And I'm sitting there going, how is this even a thing? I mean, don't get me wrong. I went back to the accredited organization and queried this because I thought that's absolutely insane.
[00:40:23] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So, like, even to the point where there's certain areas of this where you're kinda saying, well, we shouldn't even be doing it. I'm I'm just I was just staggered by that. I really was. So, yeah, I think there's still there's a lot of this as well.
[00:40:39] Wendy Kendall: Lots of shoulds, lots of toxic beliefs around you should or shouldn't. Yeah. Lovely. Not kind of rooted in
[00:40:47] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: any founding
[00:40:49] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: You know? Yeah. Yeah. We've got life coaches and, you know, people who haven't gone through quite as much training as what what our our even our sort of MSC grads have been through,
[00:41:02] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:41:03] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Doing way more stuff than what than what they would be would be would be getting up to with a with an with a sort of a subtly footballer player or a netballer or a volleyball team. So, yeah, there's lots of this shoulds. There's lots of, you know, should you be charged. I get it even now. Right?
[00:41:21] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I'm I'm probably at the higher end of the fee market for sports psychologists. And I'm in I'm I'm in danger of pricing myself out of the supervision market. Mhmm. If I if I raise my prices any higher, because I'm probably at the top end of the fees as a supervisor as well. But I don't actually make any money off of supervision.
[00:41:44] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Like, I I supervise other psychologists. I don't actually make any money. I'm already
[00:41:52] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Close to pricing myself out of the market for it. So
[00:41:56] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: You know, that's, it's an interesting point to consider that we we have in sports psychology is this idea that, you know, people are charging almost half of what I what I'm charging. And whether they're given the same quality or the same amount of service, I I don't know, but or or whether they're given the same level of contact or support. I'm not sure, but, yeah, there's certainly lots of these toxic beliefs and negative thoughts around charging and fees and finances and even doing the work itself, weirdly.
[00:42:29] Wendy Kendall: Oh, interesting. What way?
[00:42:31] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Well, the the idea that we you know, training shouldn't be doing, you know, one to one work or until they've got to a certain point in their their training process.
[00:42:41] Wendy Kendall: Actually, yeah. And, you know, you're bringing back some memories there for me, which was I started my private practice. I'd been a Ministry of Defense psychologist for 7 years, so I was already chartered. And, they, you know, I we moved to France, and I set up my private practice there for the first time. Now there's a slight cross cultural, issue here because what happened was that my French father-in-law, who was bank manager, said, 29 years old, and you think you can set up your own business.
[00:43:20] Wendy Kendall: Like, you should be in private you know, a a psychologist for, like, 25 years before you even think about setting up your own business. And, you know, though so I think there was an element there of I don't know if there was an aspect of gender. You know, I was a mom to 2 small children at that point. There was but there was also a kind of expectation within a a certain cultural framework that the people who were allowed to set up their own businesses were the ones that had already worked for someone else for 20 or 25 years. And the idea that me with only 7 years of experience working as a psychologist could go and then offer their services to somebody else.
[00:44:11] Wendy Kendall: And another kind of interesting story of the things that we are faced with sometimes, you know, to your point around how people in other businesses don't have this mindset. You know, they have a mindset which is if you, if you're good, you'll charge money. If your services are good, they will be expensive. Right? And and we communicate our value sometimes through the, in for some of our services, we're communicating the value or people are picking up of a message around value based on, how much we're charging for them.
[00:44:54] Wendy Kendall: And I I remember starting to do a lot of executive coaching and, you know, come from a very working class background. And I was probably still shopping at kind of high street, you know, buying my suits from somewhere like Next. I don't know what that might be in the American context, but it, you know, it might be, you know, something that is kind of mid range on the high street, you know, this kind of stuff. And my colleague said to me, you know, we're charging a lot of money for executive coaching from and for executive team facilitation and so on. And, you know, with respect, you need to start looking expensive.
[00:45:34] Wendy Kendall: And I remember ordering a bunch of clothes to go to my mom's house. So and I was going to pick them up. And I'd so I mean, I'm still buying ready to wear. Yeah. I'm not buying, like, 3,000 pound suits or something, but, you know, it was more expensive.
[00:45:52] Wendy Kendall: And I had all this stuff delivered, and my mom had looked at the delivery note. Like, she'd opened it and looked at the delivery note, and she was like, how much? And I I said to she said, how much does all this cost? And I would so why I said, well, you know, I think it I don't know. At the time, maybe I'd spent 1 and a half ÂŁ1,000 on, I don't know, 33 suits.
[00:46:15] Wendy Kendall: And, I said, well, you know, my colleague said to me we're charging a lot of money, so we need to show that we're expensive. And she said, well, why don't you just charge them less so you don't have to spend all this money on suits? And it was such an interesting experience because and when I reflect on it, you know, I was the first in my family to go to university. I was the first in my family to enter a profession, and the expectations and the stories were just they these were worlds apart, and now you really see how you're navigating 2 different worlds. It was yeah.
[00:46:59] Wendy Kendall: It it was real moment of reflection for me, and it it really stuck in my mind. So
[00:47:07] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I definitely had the same experiences. I I often think the people that know the people that matter will often know and notice those things. Like, I wear a particular watch for for a particular reason. And those peep the people that are who are looking at hiring psychologists or, you know, bringing in executive coaches, they look at the watch and they go, I know what that is. And that is a mark of quality.
[00:47:32] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: That tells you everything. It it tells a story and the way in which we portray and place ourselves in what it is we do tells a story about who we are as practitioners almost.
[00:47:44] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I think that's a it's a very interesting point. You you certainly have to look the part in in some areas.
[00:47:52] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So, Andrea, I don't know if we can put those on the expenses within the, business. I'm guessing not all of these things are tax deductible.
[00:48:04] Andrea Rotondo: Not all of them. No. No. Some of them will. Not all of them.
[00:48:08] Andrea Rotondo: But to to what you were saying, I think that there's also kind of like the demand and that will affect your pricing. I have heard, for example, marketing coaches say, increase your fee until you get a lot of resistance. And I think that
[00:48:29] Andrea Rotondo: Nowadays, at least in the US, mental health and speaking to a therapist is something that is more open. Even when I was a kid, that was not that was not a thing. You don't just go talk to a therapist unless you were on a really life threatening situation. And
[00:48:56] Andrea Rotondo: Thankfully, that's not the case anymore. I know that there's and it's again, it's very cultural. And, also, here, it's not something that is it's not a service that is free. It costs a lot of money. For the most part, it's out of pocket.
[00:49:13] Andrea Rotondo: So but, again, because it's more accepted, it's it's now encouraged in a way. There are businesses that will give some sort of wellness stipends to their employees and things like that that are more, again, encouraging to the population to go and seek help when they need it. I think that has also played a role with the fees and increasing fees for private practices that are only taking private pay and not insurance. And that, I think, has also been a positive change. There's a lot of moving parts into it and some are good and some are bad, but I think that specifically has played a role with and, like, talking like finance, like, the demand because there's more people seeking therapists.
[00:50:04] Andrea Rotondo: And I wanna say that COVID was a catalyst and that, private practices just suddenly had to close our doors, and they started telehealth. And that just opened the door to seeing more clients too because you not only have the people that can drive to your office and see you, but now you have your whole state. So in the United States, I'm not sure how things are over there, but here, you have to be licensed with the state to see clients in that state. You can't see anybody else unless you're licensed in that other state. But previously, for example, I'm in Florida.
[00:50:38] Andrea Rotondo: I can be licensed in Florida, but if my office is here, I have only so many people in my area that will come see me. If I now have a virtual office, then I can see anybody from Florida. That literally just opened so many doors. So even without necessarily having an increased fee, you now have the possibility of having a wait list because you have more opportunity for clients. So I think that, again, that perspective Yeah.
[00:51:08] Andrea Rotondo: Of mental health and it's okay and we talk about it has also been, has had a positive impact in in in raising those fees as well as more clients for therapy practices.
00:51:25 Importance of Streamlining Financial Systems in Private Practice
[00:51:25] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And there there's so many things that come up for me listening to what you're describing there. So if I think about what was a pivotal shift for me thinking about private practice and how we earn money in private practice, I mean, you know, I've I've done it just like everyone else has, you know, done it as well, which is we we end up sometimes delivering services on almost on a treadmill. So, you know, we get good at a thing, and then we get asked to do the thing lots and lots of times. And, you know, we carry on kind of delivering these services.
[00:52:03] Wendy Kendall: And, so starting to think about how can I diversify the ways in which I earn money in my private practice? Because just because we run out of, I mean, I certainly did, you know, just run out of time and energy and interest in doing the same thing over and over again for many different years. And I know we all love working with the clients. Clients always bring their unique challenges no matter what kind of client it is, but when you've written your 4 thousandth assessment report there's a limit to the number of, you know, assessment reports you can continue to write, at least that was my experience. What really shifted my perspective was understanding that, so I have this I I did I ran this money mindset webinar in I think 2018 or 2019, and it was the most oversubscribed webinar that I'd run.
[00:53:02] Wendy Kendall: And within that but, you know, just this whole topic. Within that, I came up with this metaphor, which was, you know, money is always flowing around the world. It's a little bit like water. There's a lot of it everywhere, and it flows in certain ways. And what we're doing, in our private practices is we are finding the stream, finding different water sources.
[00:53:33] Wendy Kendall: We're building a bucket. We're going to the stream, and we're taking a bucket of water out of the stream. And then actually, to your earlier point, Andrea, you know, about how we then go and resource our families and our communities with that, we're then using that water to water the garden around us. You know, pretty much no psychologist, I'm going to put a wager on this, that I would say there's not many psychologists who are stashing their money in tax havens in the Cayman Islands. There might be some.
[00:54:09] Wendy Kendall: I'm not gonna judge you on it. I might a little bit. No. I'm just joking. Look.
[00:54:15] Wendy Kendall: But mostly what we're doing is we're paying for our kids. We're paying, you know, the the local businesses in our communities. We're paying for, professional development. We're, you know, we are part of the lifeblood of our communities as well. And, you know, to your point about what the pandemic showed us and and, you know, discussions you you and I have had, Matt, which is there is a huge market for what we do.
[00:54:44] Wendy Kendall: There is an enormous vast body of water out there for what we do. And when you see mental health platforms like those that shall remain nameless who are very happily taking water, and redirecting some of that flow into their own tax havens Or, you know, whether and then we start to debate how big our bucket should be, and maybe we should just have a little cut, or is it alright for us to have a slightly bigger bucket? And, you know, is it okay for us to go and put this bucket in the one to one at this point or in the, you know, the different kind of areas? I mean, Matt, you and I were talking about, I think we had a LinkedIn discussion about the size of the market for what sports and exercise psychologists do.
[00:55:38] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. I mean, it's it's, it depends on where you look. And and like you say, in terms of those streams of, of of income, you know, we have at the top, you know, the professional athletes is, what, 700 to go to Olympic games, maybe a little bit more in the UK. You might have a you know, if you double that that maybe a 1000 people who are kind of vying for those spots. But then you look at somebody you know, you look at how many people play football on a Saturday morning and you then get to 7,000,000 people who play football on a Saturday and a Sunday, every week.
[00:56:16] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: So the market changes. And if you I think there's a bit of an obsession in sports psychology with the top end, the glitz and the glamour of the top end. And I and I can I can see what I've worked there, so I should see why it's appealing, but it's a tough environment to be in? Wendy, you spoke earlier about organization of being tough to work in. Sporting organizations at an Olympic Games time, which is like now, so we're a few months going into it, is an incredibly pressured up pressurized environment.
[00:56:44] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And as a psych in that environment, you are literally balancing as you possibly can. And, yeah. But then if you if you switch your your view to kind of your every Saturday league footballer or your average cricketer or or who's somebody who's kinda just enjoying sport or who's somebody who wants to lose weight or somebody who wants to enjoy going to the gym a little bit more, we can we can the the market goes ever further. And then if we go further and it does that, we said, well, sports psychologists do resilience training. Okay.
[00:57:16] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Well, who needs resilience training in the world? I mean, there's lots of people in in the world that that need resilience training, and we can then market that as a way of, okay, how do we build resilience through sport? Right? Because most sports psychologists are not just psychologists. We're usually sports coaches.
[00:57:33] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: We've been involved in sport in our entire life. So we know a lot about sport and how to use sport to create change with people. So I think it depends on how you look at it, but that that market can grow. And and there's certainly if you're willing to diversify around and have a think about, I guess, the projects that you wanna work on, there's definitely more opportunity if you if you look in different places.
[00:57:59] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And, Andrea, for you and for your clients, do you also see that evidence of them looking for different markets, or how does that tend to work with them?
[00:58:10] Andrea Rotondo: Yeah. What I've seen lately is kind of like what you were mentioning before about coaching. There's a lot of conversation and and changes into either not seeing therapy clients anymore and just becoming a coach and diving into coaching or having both. And I've also seen many therapists, become speakers as well. So they offer trainings to large corporations, like really big companies that will bring them to speak to their thousands or hundreds of employees.
[00:58:47] Andrea Rotondo: And sometimes they kinda, like, do that on on on a recurring basis. So I have seen a lot of therapists who are not just doing the therapy 1 on 1, work anymore. Number 1, because, kinda like you were saying, it's now it's like this whole new opportunity that we didn't know it was there before. Things like you already know how to do. Like you were saying, Matt, with the sports, like, this is things that we already do that you can just package it differently.
[00:59:18] Andrea Rotondo: And now it's it's a new service. It's a new offer. But, again, that comes with learning the marketing and learning how to implement that into the business. And then if we're talking about, like, the financial systems, now we have to incorporate all of that. So that deters a lot of people from knowing that.
[00:59:37] Andrea Rotondo: But the ones that do, it's a great opportunity because these things that either you're already well equipped to do it and you're just packaging it differently, or you might just find that that this is, like it gives you that new, motivation. You know, you don't feel burned out because I've seen a lot of therapists that feel burned out from the same thing. Yeah. Also, because it's such a struggle with the pain, which is the same conversation over and over again, But this is kind of like a breath of fresh air. Like, I'm doing what I'm doing.
[01:00:09] Andrea Rotondo: I'm serving the people around me. I'm helping them. There is change that I can see, but I am also not getting my mortgage at risk. You know? I can also go home Yes.
[01:00:23] Andrea Rotondo: And take care of my garden. You know? I can take my kids to the classes that they need. I can save for my retirement, which is one of the things that it's crazy, like, that people feel like, what? You're gonna charge me more because you're thinking about your retirement?
[01:00:39] Andrea Rotondo: Yes. I have to take care of myself. I have to take care of my kids. I have to have health insurance and all of these things that are okay for every other professional to have, that it's also okay for therapists to have.
[01:00:57] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So a few things come to mind as you're as you're talking there, Andrea, which is how healing it can be to bring other facets of our capability to bear in our private practice. Like, you know, we find that we're not we're not just good therapists, We're not just good, you know, one to one coaches. We're also good trainers. We and then so the the ways in which we can diversify how we support people, also has that kind of healing potential because we bring more of ourselves and a more, more wholeness of ourselves into our practices.
[01:01:49] Wendy Kendall: So, you know, and that also makes us more resilient. You know, we have a more resilient kind of sense of identity then and a more well rounded sense of our self worth. And I mean, self worth is an enormous topic in this. We could almost record a second episode, you know, about that, on on this topic of finances and self worth. I think the other thing that I'd love to kind of just touch on, you know, is the relationship that we have with people like you, Andrea, Because what you said there about, you know, empowering and enabling people to, to actually bring these new services to life.
[01:02:34] Wendy Kendall: You know, I'm always like I've always had an accountant. And the reason being, I set up when I set up my company in France in 2003, I had to be a limited company, and that meant I had to have an accountant. But fortunately for me, my accountant was really good at helping me to have an insight into the numbers in the business. And I I literally don't know how people function without an accountant or a bookkeeper or someone to be a partner with them about the numbers. And and yeah.
[01:03:08] Wendy Kendall: So, Andrea, what's your thought on that? I can imagine you kind of support this perspective, right, that we we need to work together as partners.
[01:03:15] Andrea Rotondo: Yes. And I think that there's this concept or kind of, like, expectation as to what the relationship with an accountant should look like. It's gonna look boring, and it's gonna look like somebody's pointing their finger at you, telling you all the things that you did wrong. And it's gonna be somebody calling you every month to ask you for your statements, which I do. Yeah.
[01:03:37] Wendy Kendall: Let like, they're just pointing their finger at you, but as a partner, but the reality is different.
[01:03:43] Andrea Rotondo: The reality is very different. I'm sure that there's gonna be people that behave that way, but the reality is that we are also in a position of wanting to serve you. We are also in a position of wanting to see your business succeed, and we have your best interest at heart. Obviously, I can't speak for everybody, but, that that is a motivation that, at least for me, and, motivated me to come and and choose to be doing what I'm doing because I know that my skills can help a business owner really kinda, like, make it. So
[01:04:21] Andrea Rotondo: I think it's necessary and important that you shop around and look for an accountant that you kinda, like, don't roll your eyes at. You know? I want you to be comfortable, you know, calling and asking a question, sending an email because, ultimately, all the work and all the math and the and the forms and and and the things that we do, all of that information is for the business owner to understand how they're managing their finances. That is crucial for any business owner. I need to know how I'm doing, and I need to know that not just when I file my taxes.
[01:05:01] Andrea Rotondo: I need to do that. I need to know that all the time. I need to know how last month went. I need to compare that with last year. I need to think about how the plan that I have in the future is gonna affect my finances today.
[01:05:14] Andrea Rotondo: I need to know if how much I should have in my savings, would this just enough, what happens if COVID, you know
[01:05:21] Andrea Rotondo: All of these moving parts, and you're not learning those skills when you go to
[01:05:27] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: school.
[01:05:28] Andrea Rotondo: So it's it's so beneficial to work with somebody at some capacity to have that guidance even if it's, for example, in the start, you're gonna start your practice or you have a practice, but you don't have a system in place to talk to somebody to that can guide you on how to set those up so that that can kinda, like, keep going. And, ultimately, you can get that information that you need. And at least over here, we have, HIPAA compliance. So what that means is, like, the the client information is completely separate from accounting. And the way that you keep track of your accounting records should be separate from that.
[01:06:09] Andrea Rotondo: So working with somebody that is aware of that and that won't get your client's information, let's say, into QuickBooks, it's very important as well. So asking questions when you're looking for somebody, number 1, that they are familiar with small business owner accounting or finance or tax is so important because that is gonna be so different from corporate accounting and corporate tax.
[01:06:34] Andrea Rotondo: Yeah. That's And number 2, with somebody that is familiar with the industry that will at least know the very basics of differentiating and keeping separate your client information and your accounting records.
[01:06:49] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Definitely. Matt, I saw you nodding vigorously about the importance of working with accountants. Have you found something similar?
[01:06:58] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. So, I I actually don't work with a an accountant at the present moment, but I've spent a lot of time with accountants in the past. So my systems are now set up where I I can kind of let them just roll over. But if my if my business grows and I start adding new projects and stuff in, then there's definitely gonna have to be, and I'm gonna have to reconsult with an accountant to to bring that in. So I tend to bring in specialists when I need them as opposed to have them rolling over all the time.
[01:07:29] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: But in the past, especially when I set up, it was having an accountant to to talk me through what I needed to do, talk me through what what I needed to keep records of, how that all needed to be submitted. And I I did have an accountant for almost 8 years who did all of my accounting for me. But, actually, after after a bit of time, I kind of got to group through it myself. And and, thankfully, my business is quite streamlined, so it makes it quite easy to do the accounting. But other than that, yeah, I I try to bring experts in when when I need them.
[01:08:02] Wendy Kendall: Well, I I think that's a really smart approach. I know I just never want to do that. So even if I could, I'm just like, yeah. I'd much rather the accountant talk me through it and be able to kind of rely on rely on them. But, yeah, I mean, I I always feel like accountants, bookkeepers, the people who can help us with our finances, you know, you get kind of much maligned for being, you know, the people who are looking after the pennies and and everything, and for me, I just the the power of having someone who can have a really meaningful conversation with you about the finances in your business is such an empowering conversation to have.
[01:08:50] Wendy Kendall: So I'm very mindful about time, and I've just enjoyed this conversation so much. I guess I've got a couple of questions. Matt, you described there, you know, how you've streamlined your business. But I'm just wondering, on reflection, that streamlining of the financial systems in your practice, have there been any ways in which that supported your financial well-being and helped you to have a more healthy relationship with money? And I'm just, yeah, just wondering about that.
[01:09:23] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: I I spent a lot of time sort of building my relationship with money, I think, and getting comfortable with charging higher figures, which was which is, you know, is is hard enough. It is there's a couple of episodes in my career that I've come across life coaches who are charging obscene amounts of money for very small amounts of work. And and I kinda just thought, why why can't I do that? And then did a little behavior experiment. I tried it out myself, and it worked once.
[01:09:54] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: And then I did another one, and it worked out the second time and kinda just use a bit of psychology on myself to to see how this would go. So that it kind of built my own financial well-being, and I'd kind of would would would definitely recommend that that people try these things out. You know? Okay. It doesn't work once.
[01:10:13] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Doesn't work. Maybe it doesn't work a couple of times, but invariably, you will get to a point where you, you know, if it doesn't work once, is that gonna be that big of a deal? Probably not. So yeah. And I and I think having having certainly having some confidence over what is coming in and going out is is definitely, important.
[01:10:35] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Like, having some oversight on that and knowing exactly what is going in and going out at any given time is really important. And I I always surprise myself that when I look into my accounts and I find something, I'm like, what is that reoccurring payment that's been going out for, like, the past year? And I said, I think, I've not seen that for for a very long time. I need to go and check what that is and just make sure that that's still doing what it should be doing. I I kinda have a purge every year or so to make sure that those those kind of payments are not happening.
[01:11:09] Wendy Kendall: I find I find purging costs can be a very healing experience. Andrea, what have you seen in terms of the kind of health and life giving, benefits of streamlining your financial systems?
[01:11:26] Andrea Rotondo: Going after what, like, what, Matt was saying was confidence. I think that a lot of people, when they're first starting out and even if they have years as business owners, what they're looking for is that feeling of confidence. Like, I got this. Like, I know what is going on, and I know what choices I need to make in my business. But confidence is not like this kinda like, oh, now I feel confident.
[01:11:55] Andrea Rotondo: You know, like, now I got here suddenly. It's just like this magical feeling. It comes with practice, and it comes with a lot of mistakes, and it comes with adjusting and tweaking. So I think that when you are intentional about setting your systems up and being aware of what's going where and the reason behind it, not just because my bookkeeper told me, but because I understand what is happening kind of, like, behind the scenes so that I can see how I'm managing my money. Not only it's kinda like you're gaining points.
[01:12:31] Andrea Rotondo: Like, oh, now I understand this. It points to your confidence, like, bucket. Okay. Now I feel a little better because now I understand why. And, oh, I ran a profit and loss report.
[01:12:45] Andrea Rotondo: Oh, that wasn't so hard. That was one of the things that one of my clients, did, for example. Like, a few meetings ago, she was like, hey. I just wanted to let you know that I went into QuickBooks, and I ran my profit and loss on my own for the first time. And we have been working for over a year, and that was a really big step for her.
[01:13:04] Andrea Rotondo: And she didn't. She was so anxious about it. Yeah. She had, not a great experience with the previous accountant. So those are little steps towards the right direction.
[01:13:17] Andrea Rotondo: So now it's kind of like, okay, she can do that without feeling terrified. That's That's the goal. You know? I want you to not feel terrified. And then we move that milestone, you know, or or we work towards the next milestone.
[01:13:33] Andrea Rotondo: Once you got here, now what can we work towards? So it's not like this one destination. It's not like, okay. Now I know this. It's it's little steps that you have to be mindful.
[01:13:47] Andrea Rotondo: It does take time. It does take effort. It takes being intentional. Yeah. It takes putting things in your calendar on on repeat, like every Friday or every 2 Fridays or at least once a month, I'm gonna categorize my stuff if you're doing it on your own or if you're working with a bookkeeper.
[01:14:05] Andrea Rotondo: Send all my stuff to my bookkeeper or book that meeting with my accountant so that we can look at my numbers together, like, it does take effort and it does take time, but it doesn't have to be really difficult, and that's the goal. The goal is to after you try things out and you're adjusting as they work or not work, that it becomes a little bit more effortless. That the the workings and the apps and the spreadsheets and all the moving parts feel a little bit more effortless so that you can grab that information. And the more that you look at your financial reports, the easier it gets to read them and to understand them. You know, the first times, I think it's years, and that's totally fine too, as long as you're moving towards that.
[01:14:57] Andrea Rotondo: You look at your financial reports and usually it's like I don't even know what this means, you know. Like, I never go in there because I don't know what it means. And then after some time of practicing that is like, oh yeah, you know, I just looked at my balance sheet and I saw that and that only comes with practice and that practice will bring that confidence.
[01:15:19] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And I'm now thinking to myself, you know what? We ended up changing accountancy package, and we changed over to 0. And I find 0 just I'm like, oh, I just I don't like the dashboard. I don't like the thing.
[01:15:38] Wendy Kendall: It's all very unfamiliar. And now I'm like, you know what? That's a little growth edge for you to go and kind of, you know, work on yourself, Wendy, to go and get comfortable with 0 again.
[01:15:53] Wendy Kendall: Because so thank you, Andrew. You kinda made me feel self accountable there.
[01:15:57] Andrea Rotondo: Of course. And all of those apps matter. You know, I usually tell people if they're just starting out and they don't know, like, should I do 0? Should I do QuickBooks? And I'm like, look.
[01:16:06] Andrea Rotondo: One of the easiest things that you can do like, you don't even have to sign up for the free trial. Go into YouTube. Look up a tutorial for, like, how to categorize transactions in my bank feed. And just you can literally see it play out. Sometimes it's colors that people are like, oh my god.
[01:16:22] Andrea Rotondo: It's just so awful. I can't look at this. And sometimes it's like, you know, I like how this looks, the dashboard and all of this. Ultimately, especially for our private practice, the the software, like, between QuickBooks 0 or any another or another one, it's not gonna be that different. You don't have inventory.
[01:16:42] Andrea Rotondo: You don't have you know, like, all of these really more complicated levels of accountant Yeah. Yeah. Of accounting. So as long as you can track and you can have your bank feeds connected, which is, you know, taking advantage of the technology, and as long as you can reconcile your accounts every month and you can pull those reports, your balance sheet, your profit and loss, and your statement of cash flows. Everything else is more of a preference.
[01:17:12] Andrea Rotondo: And if you're not okay with how that feels, that's okay. You can change it or you could spend an afternoon being okay with it so that or or playing with it so that you can feel okay with it. But, ultimately, that's just one tool in in a whole, drawer of different items and tools that that are gonna help you get better at it.
[01:17:36] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Well, I've loved this conversation and as I said, I I feel like that there should be an episode to be, you know, a a a kind of follow-up episode to this because it's such an important and central, kind of topic. Could I, ask you where we can find you on the Internet, please? Andrea, where can we find you?
[01:18:01] Andrea Rotondo: Yes. I am mostly hanging out on LinkedIn, so you just Google oh, not Google. You just put my name Andrea Rotondo in there. I'm usually having conversations in there or posting, like, tips or videos on how to help you kinda, like, systematize things better or what to look for in your private practice. You can also find me on Instagram, andreea.rotondo.
[01:18:28] Andrea Rotondo: But, again, you'll find me more on LinkedIn.
[01:18:33] Wendy Kendall: Okay. Perfect. Thank you so much, and thanks so much for being here today. And, Matt, where can we find you on the Internet?
01:18:41 Exploring Financial Well-Being and the Psychology of Money in Private Practice
[01:18:41] Dr Matthew Cunliffe: Yeah. So, just Google Matt Connor Sports psychologist. That's usually a good way, but directly would be sports psychology ken.co.uk or through LinkedIn. Yeah. It's another good place to find me as well.
[01:18:53] Wendy Kendall: Thank you so much both of you for this, conversation. I'm just really, looking forward to the kind of discussion that comes out of this. You know, the discussion in the comments, the discussion on social media that we get because I think it's just such an enormous topic and and yet it's so central to the success and health of our private practices and as, you know, us as private practitioners as well. So thank you both for being here today. So I found this such an important and inspiring conversation to have with Matt and Andrea Because even though we're coming at this topic of financial well-being and kind of the relationship that we have with money and our practices.
[01:19:41] Wendy Kendall: You know we're coming at it from very different perspectives but, there are so many challenges that all of us face as psychologists, you know, and how we relate to, how we charge for our services, how we create income streams, and, you know, that taps into so many facets around our identity, around topics like self worth, around topics like the relationship that we have with our families or other people, and and even the way in which kind of, our money impacts on the relationship that we have with clients, like, you know, what we charge and what that says to clients and how that kind of influences how we, show up as psychologists or how we actually do the work. And the thing that really came home to me though is all of this complexity is made more difficult because we don't talk about it. And I'm thinking about how, you know, so much of breaking the mold of private practice is really about having some of those conversations and speaking for some of those things that have been unspoken. I would love to see more financial education of, gosh, you know, starting back in, you know, as Andrea was talking about how even as teenagers in high school or, you know, secondary school or wherever, how we are not I mean, certainly, I wasn't.
[01:21:27] Wendy Kendall: I don't know for my, you know, now adult children whether they I don't think they were even taught in school about this idea of how do we create a financial income for ourselves that goes beyond just being an employee. You know, to me, this is really central kind of piece of information that we're missing. And when I think about our much more professional or vocational training around that, like, again, we need to think about that and, you know, start to start to educate young people and people coming into the profession about what it means, to create an income stream, how to create a business otherwise, we're not communicating you know, there are the very important ways in which we're not communicating the value of what we do to broader society, and I think that can disempower us. On the flip side, when we learn more about how to do that, actually, you know, we can it can be a very empowering experience, you know, when we start to realize we can have powerful conversations with people like our accountants or maybe ultimately with, you know, family, friends, colleagues, investors, etcetera, about the value that we create, that can be an incredibly empowering place to be.
[01:23:08] Wendy Kendall: And so I guess, yeah, what what I'm reflecting on is how, how they're still, for me anyway, how I'm still enjoying the evolution of this story of my own relationship with, money and value and earning and financial well-being as somebody in private practice. So I hope you've enjoyed this journey, and I'm looking forward to your reflections, your comments. Yeah. Let me know what you thought. Bye, everyone.
[01:23:46] Wendy Kendall: Until next time.
