[00:00:00] Wendy Kendall: Here, Heather's doing it. Welcome everybody, to this episode of the Inspiring Psychologist podcast. And in this episode, we are looking at rest, restore and revive, creating a practice that regenerates you. And this episode is all about self care. Yes. But in particular, I'm really curious about how we can structure our practices to support personal restoration and resilience. Like how do we build that into how the practice operates? I am also really curious to explore why it's sometimes hard to allow ourselves to rest and restore. And what do we do when we have to balance private practice with intense, caring responsibilities for ourselves and or even for others? And along with me today, co hosting is my friend and colleague, Dr. Tess Brown, who is director of the Mind Atelier consultancy that offers well being support to organizations. So welcome, Tess, and welcome to this episode. And thank you for co hosting with me. Oh, you're so welcome.
[00:01:30] Tess Browne: It's lovely to be here. Thanks, Wendy.
[00:01:33] Wendy Kendall: Perfect. So tell me, tell us a little bit about the mind atelier and also about your perspective on this title, on this topic of how we restore and kind of replenish ourselves in private practice.
[00:01:49] Tess Browne: Sure. So, yes, the mind atelier I guess, has sort of two mainstreams. So one is supporting organizations and individuals within those organizations in terms of their mental health and well being, through coaching, through training, through consultation. And then the other stream is supporting professional women. Usually parents overcome burnout, sort of improve their psychological resilience, and supporting clinical issues related to perinatal mental health. So there's often overlap between those two areas, but they're sort of the main sort of topics that the business focuses on and the sort of people that I support.
[00:02:39] Rest, Restore, Revive: Balancing Work and Personal Needs in Private Practice
[00:02:39] Wendy Kendall: Now, you and I have had various conversations over the years. It is more than one year that we've been working together. And what have you now, isn't it about this topic of rest, restore, revive? And I know it's really important to you as well, but what is it in particular that kind of really speaks to you about this topic? Where are you coming from on it?
[00:03:03] Tess Browne: I guess so. I've been in private practice now for coming up to eleven years this year, and I definitely feel like there's been different sort of chapters or eras within my private practice journey. And along as those chapters have sort of transitioned, my own personal needs, my own personal values have changed. And so I've really needed to, I guess, redesign my practice, redesign the way I work to meet those needs. And having kind of done that a couple of times now and really, really felt the benefits. Yeah, I'm so passionate about supporting other people. I work with a lot of other therapists in terms of coaching them as well. But, yeah, just so that people realize that they do have a choice in the way that they work. And if we're intentional about setting up a practice and a business to sort of suit our values and our needs, we can really blossom and our clients are going to benefit from that. So, yeah, I think it's such an important topic.
[00:04:05] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Perfect. And obviously, we're going to welcome our guests shortly, but we'll be speaking to Dr. Rebecca Tennyson, who is going to share with us how she balances retaining her part time role in the NHS with her private practice. And also psychotherapist Bianca Clark, who combines being a psychotherapist with being a personal trainer and also managing her own journey in this story of kind of restoration in private practice.
[00:04:38] Wendy Kendall: So without further ado, let's welcome our guests. And here we go. Hi, Rebecca. Hello, Bianca. It's great to have you here.
[00:04:50] Bianca Clarke: Hello. Thanks for having us.
[00:04:55] Wendy Kendall: Okay, so, yeah, over to you.
[00:05:01] Tess Browne: Okay. I'm looking forward to getting this conversation started.
[00:05:07] Importance of Self-Care in Private Practice
[00:05:07] Tess Browne: So I think a good question for us to maybe start by thinking about is what was a pivotal moment when you realized the importance of self care within your private practice journey. And just to give you a little bit of time to think about that, maybe I'll start by sort of sharing for me what I kind of recognize as was quite a pivotal moment. As I was just saying, I feel like I've gone through different chapters in my private practice journey, but probably one of the most significant ones for me was coming back, probably from my second maternity leave, coming back into work. And it was a slow process, but just realizing that what I now know I was experiencing was compassion fatigue and probably very much heading towards burnout. And I think some of the signs for me were things like just not enjoying my work anymore. I'd look at my schedule and sort of my heart would sink a little bit about the types of clients I was working with or the types of problems that I was working with. And I was just feeling quite unmotivated and quite like I plateaued, actually. Like I just got a bit stuck. Unlike, I guess if you're working for an employer, there might be opportunities for appraisals or promotions. We don't have any of that in private practice. So that, for me, I thought, if this is going to be sort of a long term way of working for me, I need to do something a little bit differently. And so, yeah, I would say that was kind of the stage for me, where I put some things in motion to sort of change the way that I worked and change what my private practice looked like.
[00:06:49] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, definitely. If I think about it, for myself, the big moment for me was around the 2012 2013 period, and I'd been running. I remember 2012 was like my busiest time. I'd been in private practice for nearly ten years at that point, and I was co partnering a consultancy, and I remember I was in Spain, I was in Madrid running a development center for a corporate client, organizing the psychometrics for a client the week after, whilst on the telephone to the funeral service for my mother. And that really struck me at that point that this was not a practice that I had created where I could take any time off to even organize my mother's funeral. And then subsequently, I ended up, I was poorly, with a flu, and that coincided with kind of two bereavements in a short period of time. Both my mom and my auntie died within four months of one another, and I got the flu, and I stayed sick for two and a half years with postviral syndrome all around that kind of hyper intensive period of time. And that really made me have to come back to, what's this practice all about? And it changed everything. And I think, Bianca, the content of yours that I've seen on social media kind of spoke to me because it sounded like we'd had some similar journeys.
[00:08:31] Wendy Kendall: But I'm curious about your pivotal moment.
[00:08:36] Bianca Clarke: Yeah, I think my pivotal moment, I think that actually came before private practice. Actually, that was the real turning point for me, was because I got quite unwell with an autoimmune disease, but I didn't know what it was at the time, and I was just burning myself out, just same as you, Tess. Just kind of that compassion fatigue, just working constantly and not allowing that time for myself. And I was just getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And that's when I really noticed I need to do something different. And that's what helped me jump into private practice. But then again, when you get into private practice, you think, okay, it's going to be, you're going to have freedom, and you're going to have more time on your hands, if you allow that to be the case. And I noticed myself that I was, again, burning out in private practice because I was taking on too much. And so I think there's been two pivotal moments for me. One was in the NHS, the typical NHS burnout, but also in private practice, the burnout that I was causing.
[00:09:32] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:09:32] Bianca Clarke: And definitely when I learned to just slow down, look after myself a bit more. That's when my health started to pick up again.
[00:09:38] Tess Browne: I think that's a really important point, because I think a lot of people, if they do go through that burnout in the NHS or an organization, they think working for themselves is the magic. You know, it can be a solution if it's designed in the right way, but, yeah, not automatically.
[00:09:56] Pivotal Moments in Private Practice
[00:09:56] Wendy Kendall: Rebecca, when did these kind of pivotal moments happen for you? Or was there a pivotal moment for you? Rebecca? Sorry.
[00:10:13] Rebekah Tennyson: Yeah, so I think really similarly to what you just said, actually, Bianca, there was kind of two for me. One where I was still, I am still in the NHS, but one kind of before I went into private practice, and one after, and the first was when I, again, very common story was working full time in the NHS. I went on maternity leave, I came back part time and didn't want to go back, increase my hours anytime soon. But that had always been the intention for me. And it was not long after going back that I realized that the thought of going back full time in the NHS filled me with absolute dread and knowing that I did want to work more hours, but obviously it wasn't going to be increasing my NHS hours. So thinking about private practice alongside of that, which has been a really fantastic balance for me personally. But it's different challenges, isn't it? Because in the NHS, a lot of people don't just stick to their hours. It's very common to flip your laptop open again and be doing your admin at night, but what you're not going to be doing is seeing clients outside of those working hours. And so the other pivotal moment for me in private practice was kind of wolfing my dinner down in 5 minutes between clients after I'd booked them a little bit too close together, to be perfectly honest. And then the first one had overrun a little bit, realizing that I then was worried about it was like burping in the next session, to be perfectly honest, because I'd wolf this dinner down so fast and felt I had indigestion, but also that I had to just literally just kiss my kid very quickly on the way back into my office. And it just really hit me that this is ridiculous. Like, I'm eating too quickly, I'm not spending time with my family, I've got too many evening clients, too many clients that are over this really important dinner and bedtime, and that whilst it's fantastic in private practice to have that flexibility to book clients in whenever works for you, I had just taken that too far. And I was starting to book things in when it didn't actually work for me. It didn't actually work for my family. It worked very well for my clients. And again, I needed to make sure that I was taking care of myself and not just taking care of other people.
[00:12:16] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, right. Yeah.
[00:12:18] Tess Browne: That's such an important point.
[00:12:20] Tess Browne: And, Rebecca, you've used the Enneagram to understand a little bit more about self care needs, I think, both in your work. But also I'd be interested to hear how you've kind of used that knowledge and tool personally, how it's benefited you in sort of structuring your practice.
[00:12:40] Rebekah Tennyson: Yeah. So, as Wendy is aware, I could talk about the enneagram literally all day long. So I will try to contain my assignment ever just a little mean. The reason that I use the Enneagram in my work and that I ended up doing kind of more training to be able to use it professionally was because it was just so transformational for me personally. And now just kind of like, is just there in everything that I do, really. In a nutshell, the enneagram is a model of personality, which is based on our underlying motivations and kind of deepest desires and core drivers, rather than behavior, which is what a lot of the personality typologies kind of focus a little bit more on. As a psychologist, I love it because there's so much depth to it. Obviously, it is about putting people into categories, to understanding kind of similarities, but there is so much room there for individuality. And it's a dynamic model, really respects people's uniqueness and thinks about how we don't just stay how we are. What are the different paths for growth for everybody? And so the most important thing, I think, for me is just really understanding how I am wired and how I am differently wired from other people. So sometimes I need to explain how I'm wired to other people, because we tend to have this assumption that we know everybody's different. We know everybody has different opinions, we know everybody kind of sees the world in different ways. But there are some things that we just assume is a universal experience with everybody. And when you learn that, no, that's something about the way you see and that's different to how somebody else sees it immediately, kind of makes you, I think, more compassionate to other people's perspective, because it's not just that you assume that there's kind of a miscommunication there or that somebody is just willfully misunderstanding you or just refusing to see your point of view. It's that they literally do not experience this situation or the world the same way that you do. So it's been really helpful for me to understand what I personally struggle with. And that I am always going to struggle with those things. I can struggle less. But, for example, as an enneagram, type two, if that means anything to anybody out there. I am wired to strive for, to feel connected with other people more than anything. And I want to be. This sounds really deep. It's really easy for me to use this language to talk about this stuff now. But I want to be loved and accepted for who I am more than absolutely anything. But what I will do is fear that's not possible. And so I will settle for being useful and needed. So I will be so helpful to anybody who makes it really clear that they need me for something up to a point. And then I'll get resentful and burnout and all that kind of thing.
[00:15:22] Wendy Kendall: So would you say that was aware of that?
[00:15:26] Rebekah Tennyson: Sometimes if I can be more aware of that.
[00:15:29] Wendy Kendall: Sorry, Rebecca, would you say that was instrumental, therefore.
[00:15:33] Rebekah Tennyson: Sorry.
[00:15:34] Rebekah Tennyson: Wendy.
[00:15:39] Wendy Kendall: Can you hear me all right, now? I think there's a bit of a delay in.
[00:15:43] Rebekah Tennyson: Sorry, guys. I think there's a problem with the wifi here. I think there is. So I was just carrying on talking, and then you started talking. So I don't know which bit it got to when you asked your question.
[00:15:55] Wendy Kendall: Don't worry, Avril, do some editing. And also we have the individual streams of everybody's live stream. So it won't be broken up on the eventual live stream. Avera will be able to do the editing for it.
[00:16:10] Wendy Kendall: But what I'd asked was knowing that personality driver, had that been influential in how you'd ended up structuring your timetable so that it felt like you were rushing your dinner and kissing your child briefly to go to bed and so on.
[00:16:39] Rebekah Tennyson: Yeah. So I think one of the things that I was then really aware of was how that made it so difficult for me to say no to people and how difficult that is to put boundaries in place. And I'd been so clear, so clear when I started out. I'd changed my NHS jobs at some point during this process as well. And I started this job by saying to my manager, I am not working beyond such and such. I've burnt out in a previous job. I'm going to be so boundaried about my. So with the private practice side thinking. So I'm also going to be boundaried around that I'm going to work on this evening at this times and all that kind of stuff. But then as soon as somebody comes to me and says, oh, I can't do that evening, could you do this evening instead? And I feel like I have to say yes because I want to be so useful to people because I want to help and I feel bad saying no. So me understanding why I feel bad saying no really helps me to again say, but you're always going to struggle with this, but you can't just keep saying yes. Actually, that discomfort at saying no is never going to go away for you. At some point, you just have to start saying no, and you have to be more boundaried. And actually you're someone for whom that is always going to feel uncomfortable. So you can't just wait for it to start feeling comfortable. You just have to do the thing anyway in order to make yourself to look after yourself. And obviously, as with most things, the more you practice that and the more you practice sitting with that discomfort, the easier it gets. But it's the knowing which bits of that and just never really going to go away for you that you're always going to struggle with. But understanding the why means that those fears, I suppose, aren't the things that make the decisions for you.
[00:18:19] Wendy Kendall: I'm just letting the feed catch up a little bit there. Hopefully you can hear us again.
[00:18:25] Wendy Kendall: Rebecca, other than your own kind of having to kind of overcome your own challenges, were there any other obstacles that you faced implementing those strategies? Did people have expectations of you because they'd always known you to be someone who was super helpful? Did you come across any other kind of obstacles in terms of changing your practice so that it fit more with your motivations and drivers?
[00:19:08] Rebekah Tennyson: Yes, not so much any of that kind of pushback from clients, actually, thankfully, which would have definitely made it more tricky. But actually, I think the realization that I am not always very aware of what it is that I need, which.
[00:19:25] Bianca Clarke: Is.
[00:19:27] Rebekah Tennyson: Something definitely to do with my particular personality type, but I think it's something that definitely applies to everybody, is that there are certain things that we are much more aware of us needing. So, again, the fact that I am so driven to seek connection with other people, if I do not spend time with people, it doesn't take very long before I am so desperate to have a conversation with another human being. Like, I feel that need very intensely. What I don't feel the need for is time alone. But I am very, very aware that I do need that. I just don't know what it feels like to feel the need for it. If that makes any sense. So it's almost like I know that I need vitamin D and I know how I would feel if I was vitamin D deficient, but I don't know, I would never wake up one day and go, oh, I really feel like I need vitamin D. It's just a thing I know I need, but I'm not quite sure what that feeling is. And for me that's time alone and probably a few other things as well that again I'm less aware of. So I think, again, it's about learning about myself and not just relying on my feelings. Again, it's almost like you can see I've got this enormous water bottle now because I know that if I wait until my body tells me I really need water, it's too late. So I can't wait for those sensations in my body. I just have to make sure I'm drinking regularly throughout the day. So it's also for me thinking about times where I structure my private practice and I structure that work around NHS work in such a way that leaves space for things that I need both within that private practice. So again, like time to think and time to learn and stuff, but also time for me personally, which includes things like time alone or time doing particular other activities. But the challenge for me is being, again, really boundaried and really intentional and really structuring that because I can't rely on just feeling a need for something and then being able to meet it. There are some of those needs that I am just never going to be acutely aware of until I'm feeling the effects of that and not always necessarily sure why.
[00:21:21] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, it's like having a dashboard that doesn't have warning lights before the engine falls over.
[00:21:31] Bianca Clarke: Mmhmm.
[00:21:34] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So a question for all of us, which is, when we think about balancing the multiple roles in our private practices, how have you approached or what kind of strategies, what shifts have you implemented to manage your various roles, particularly when it comes to prioritizing your own well being and self care? So if I was to think about that myself, I am going to say I'm fortunate now in that my children are adults and I think the demands of being a parent to adult children are very different to the demands of being a parent to very young children. But I know that when I think about having to either run very intensive programs or a lot of coaching sessions where we're very focused and then needing to just take some time out of that, I have a definite kind of curriculum within my own calendar so that there's certain weeks of the month that I know are quite intensive, but they're balanced with very kind of much more open and less intensive weeks. So that's one of the way in which I've balanced between the intensive focus that I have to do in some of my work versus some of the other material or some of the other times where I have to do much more creative work.
[00:23:18] Wendy Kendall: So, Bianca, I know you have quite a lot of kind of different roles in your practice. Content creator, personal trainer, psychotherapist. How about you? What strategies have worked for you?
[00:23:34] Bianca Clarke: I don't know. It's hard. It's really difficult, especially when you do have kids. I've got a four year old and a 14 year old, so they're both on both ends of the difficult spectrum. You got a really young one and then a teenager. And so, yeah, whatever I do, it does feel difficult, but there are things that do make it easier. And so I guess something that has been key for me is making my own self care a role in itself. So I've got a role to look after all these other people, my clients, my kids, looking after the home and whatnot. But I make sure that every day I do something for me. And I used to think it was quite selfish. I used to think I can't put myself first. But I do make sure I have at least five or 10 minutes now where I am doing something where I can just slow down and stop. Because I do find that when I just keep going and going and going and burning myself out and doing everything for everyone else and nothing for me, that I'm actually not that efficient in what I want to do with other people, I'm not that present. I'm just not fully into it. So I know if I take a bit of time out, even if it's just going for a walk or just a bit of deep breathing, I know it might sound cliche, but it's so, so helpful just calming my system down so that I can then do what I need to do for the other people. So I think that's what I'm implementing at the moment and it's working quite well. I might change that later down the line, who knows? But right now it's doing its job, so that's how I'm coping at the moment.
[00:25:02] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, exactly. So it doesn't have to be the same all the time. And if it's working for you, then it's great. And if it's not, then it can also change. And that degree of autonomy, I think is really important.
[00:25:14] Wendy Kendall: Tess, what have you found about balancing different roles?
[00:25:19] Tess Browne: Well, I definitely know aligned with, I guess, having this new role of becoming a mum was when I started to kind of notice feeling more burnt out in my work. And I think one thing that really helped me to figure out what I needed to do about that was really sort of coming back and checking in with my values and how they devolved as my responsibilities had sort of shifted and evolved. And once I got a bit clearer on what they now were. And of course, some of them were the same as before I became a mum, but obviously some of them were a little different. And so that information then enabled me to set up better boundaries. I think that was a really sort of key piece for me to ensure that I was really prioritizing sort of non negotiables within my schedule, within the way that I work, which enabled me to work and live in a way which was much more value aligned, so I can work in a flexible way, so that I can be at school pickup or be it sort of ad hoc school performances that get thrown in the diary, so that I can choose my hours around, making sure I have time for me to go to the gym or go to a Pilates class, so that I can say no to clients and say no to opportunities more. I certainly think in the past, especially working for yourself, there's a bit of a scarcity mindset and a real pull to accept all work that comes your way. But I think I now really have a conversation with myself and think about, well, if I say yes to this opportunity, be it working with a particular presentation or be it working with a particular company, what's that going to take away from? Does that mean it's going to take me away from my family? Or does it mean I'm going to have to work over tea time and not see my kids? And so I've got less afraid of saying no to things that are to do with work. And in saying no to those things, I'm saying yes to the things that really matter to me, like my health, like my family. So, yeah, I think there was definitely a real sort of mindset shift at some point for me where that kind of classic idea of putting your own oxygen mask on first, and I really felt that if I start to really listen to and honor my own values and needs, not only is that serving me, but it's serving my clients, because it means that I can show up for them in a much better way. I'm a better psychologist when I look after myself and I can still work ethically, I can still work professionally, I can still be effective while still prioritizing.
[00:28:13] Wendy Kendall: My own mean for all of, of. We're all based in the know. For those of us who are HCPC registered, they've recently changed the guidelines and added self care to our requirements for registration. Bianca, is it BACP that you're a member of the BABCP? Right, ok. Sorry for it. I know I'm always getting acronyms mixed up. Is it similar kind of thing there? Do they have some requirement within BABCP about your self care as well?
[00:28:55] Bianca Clarke: Not that I've seen yet. It might be coming, who knows?
[00:28:58] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, maybe they need to start swapping notes on that between the HCPC.
[00:29:02] Balancing Multiple Roles with Bianca Clarke and Rebekah Tennyson
[00:29:02] Wendy Kendall: Rebecca, you've got lots of different roles also, because you still have your part time NHS role, you have your private practice. How about you? What have you found works for you when it comes to kind of balancing across these multiple roles, not just professional but also personal roles you might have.
[00:29:28] Rebekah Tennyson: Yeah. So, again, the word for me that I just need tattooed everywhere, I think, is boundaries and really, really knowing that it's okay for me to put that in place. Like Tess was saying, not only is it okay, but it's actually really necessary and it benefits everybody around me as well as benefiting me. But I think combined with that, for me is. Or part of that for me is being really realistic with myself about what I can do and what it's possible. And if I am going to have lots of multiple roles, then obviously they can. Yeah, it's really hard. But my time is not infinite. I cannot do everything wonderfully, 100% all of the time. I am going to have to split my time. And again, another kind of part of my personality is that I will see things in front of me that need to be dealt with and immediately think that they need to be dealt with and find it very, very difficult to put that down for later. So I have had to really practice just putting things to the side and saying, that is not something for now that cannot be dealt with right now, and not if I'm also going to be really focusing on my child. I cannot reply to that email right now or if I'm going to be doing my work well. I cannot be constantly interrupted by my kid. And I think a really key thing for me, which I think fits with what Tess was saying about feeling better, saying no to things, but also not apologizing for things that I do not need to apologize for. So I don't need to apologize and say, oh, I'm really sorry, I can't do that. Actually. No, it's just, no, I can't do that because I'm doing this other thing. Or no, I do not have time without having to justify and explain to other people what I'm doing within that time. But also, just today I'm doing this recording and there is a storm going on outside and I think it's affecting my wifi. And I have put in the chat to tell all of the other guys on this call that it's windy. I think it's affecting my wifi. And I started off with sorry again, that's the perfect example of a thing that I do not need to apologize for because it's not within my control. But there are going to be some people out there who I think probably resonate with this, who just think, actually we do take on too much responsibility and we think that too many things are our fault or our responsibility, or that we should be able to control or have more control over than we do, and actually just being really realistic about what we can do, what we can't do, what is our responsibility, what isn't, what's in our control? The fact that nobody is a superhero and that also nobody actually expects us to be. And if some people ask for things from you, it's not often because they think that you should say yes or they think that you're just sitting there twiddling your thumbs, which would also be fine, by the way. But other people, just like nobody else, has an appreciation for everything that you do and all the different roles and all the different responsibilities that you have in your life. And you do not have to justify it and you do not have to apologize for the way that you've chosen to live your life and set it up. So I am still very much trying to live that out, but that has been really pivotal for.
[00:32:27] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, yeah. That reminds me a little bit of our good friend Michelle Minneken and her recent book publication about good girl deprogramming about all the ways in which we end up apologizing for things that aren't under our control. And the other thing that brings to is, you know, all of us here have worked in UK public sector at some point in the past or are still working in UK public sector. And my role was with Minister of defense, gosh, in the late 90s, early two thousand s. And I remember even then we were expected to be what was called the elastic glue that held the parts of the system. It just that phrase of us being elastic glue holding the system together just reminds me so much of this experience of trying to balance all these roles until, as you said, rebecca, I'm going know not apologize for not picking some of these things up anymore. I'm going to say how it's going to be. Yeah.
[00:33:44] Wendy Kendall: Bianca, your practice obviously combines psychology, lifestyle changes for individuals with autoimmune disease and chronic pain. Can you describe how that approach has evolved and how it's kind of influenced your way of turning up in your private practice and your kind of overall well being as well?
[00:34:10] Bianca Clarke: I think when I reflect on it, just as you asked me that, I was thinking that before private practice, I wasn't actually able to work in the way that I wanted to at all, and I wasn't able to look after myself in the way that I needed to. And so I do think edging into private practice really helped me to, I don't know, get a hold over how I am looking after and managing my own difficulties that I have with autoimmune disease. So, yeah, what I do is I combine the psychology, the psychotherapy and fitness coaching, personal training, and kind of created what I think is kind of a unique combination of the two. In terms of that, I guess I'm qualified to deliver both things, but I think what I really had to learn or even relearn is the way that I talk to myself and the way that all the pressures that I put on myself. And I think when you're working in an organization, there's a lot of external pressure that's put on you, whereas when you work for yourself, you choose those pressures. And I think me being able to choose my pressures and, I don't know, choose what I want to do has been just so helpful in managing my own symptoms. And so this mindset shift, I had to kind of think in terms of, I guess, the societal standards that we work. We work five days a week, we put our all into work, we give all these hours and sometimes overworking our hours. I had to really change that and think, what would I say to my clients? Would I encourage them to do the same thing? And especially given that they're battling with autoimmune diseases, chronic conditions, would I be saying that to them? And can I actually start practicing what I preach in a way? So I really had to shift that mindset. And it's the same in fitness as well, actually, that there's this whole no pain, no gain thing, and people push really hard and it's often too hard for their bodies, and it can lead to a myriad of problems, which I won't go into, but especially with chronic conditions, is that we can't listen to the same standards that maybe society puts on us. We need to change it up and have more compassion. And I think going into my own private practice, working with clients with similar difficulties, has really helped me to then reflect that back onto myself and into my own life. So I think combining the two things, having that compassion, making sure I have that balance, and moving past some of those standards that are often put on us, that's been immense in my own lifestyle changes and how I am then feeling in myself and managing the condition that I have.
[00:36:47] Wendy Kendall: And did you find that a smooth transition or were there any hurdles that came? Was it mostly internal hurdles, or were there also external hurdles with expectations or making those changes and having to explain those changes to anybody?
[00:37:08] Bianca Clarke: I think I'm lucky enough that I haven't really had to explain my changes to anybody. I get on, I do my own thing, and my family and the people around me trust in my decisions as to why I'm doing what I'm doing. I think there definitely was some internal stuff, especially when I was working in a busy NHS environment. I remember I had to reduce my hours because my symptoms were flaring up and I reduced my hours. And I thought to myself, but I shouldn't have to do this. I should be able to work five days a week and see five or six clients a day like everybody else. And I did remember worrying that if I start reducing my hours, am I going to lose my resilience and then have to reduce more and more and more, not realizing that it's not necessarily me that's the problem here, but I actually just need to adapt to my condition and the way that I feel at the moment and the lifestyle. Sorry, the personal responsibilities that I have as well. I just need to adapt and make my work work for me, rather than the other way around, making myself fit into this mold of what's expected. So, yeah, there was a lot of internal stuff that I had to let go of and, yeah, just letting go of that really just shifted everything for me.
[00:38:22] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, it's kind of interesting when people aren't giving us those direct messages. So it's not as though we're coming here today and saying, oh, yes, our managers said X, Y and Z, or our spouses said this, or whoever significant others or other people in our lives are not necessarily sitting there in judgment, yet we've absorbed all these expectations, or we receive all these cues. What do any of you think about where those cues are coming from. What's the biggest kind of influence on it?
[00:39:04] Tess Browne: Gosh, I feel like there's so many, but I think a really pivotal one. For me, it comes from within the profession. If I think back to my training, the messages that were kind of set in terms of this is how you work, the placements that we did, this is how one practices. I feel like it really set in motion, really quite rigid expectations about what my future way of working and my future career had to look like. And I think it does for so many of my peers because I've heard these stories time and time again, and it's often not until there's some kind of critical moment that it forces you to actually look at that and actually ask yourself, does it have to be this way? So for a lot of people, that might be burnt out. For me, it was a move overseas. I had to change the way that I was working. But some kind of critical moment that actually makes you think, well, hang on a minute, this isn't how it has to be. But even now, I think there's very much expectations there, certainly within kind of peers that I think we can internalize, and it's a challenge to then overcome them.
[00:40:24] Wendy Kendall: Rebecca, what can the Enneagram tell us about the different motivations, the different types of people that might be out there and the kinds of motivations?
[00:40:44] Rebekah Tennyson: Yeah, that was just making me think, actually, especially what Bianca was saying around that word should. And just what should I be doing? What should I be able to cope with? And this is what everybody else is doing. And I think that there are certain personality types within certain settings that get praised for being who they are more readily. So even just thinking about the kind of people that you would expect, for example, to feel as though they fit better in an investment banking situation versus a primary school or caring kind of profession. And it's not that only certain types of people can do those jobs well, it's that different types of people are going to do those jobs differently, but we're not necessarily that good at respecting those different ways of being and those different ways of working. And so I think one of the most helpful things about the enneagram, especially when you use it in teams, is really understanding the different strengths that you've got from different personality types in that team, and not how are all these people going to do better at or struggle at doing these particular roles in these particular ways that we've defined as being the way that they are typically done or the way that we think they should be done. But actually, just saying, what would it look like if people came to these roles and did them to the best of their ability? And can we really value the different ways that would appear? And I think that there's a lot of anxiety around that and also from individuals as well. We often like there to be clearer guidance on, are we doing this well? Are we doing this right? Do other people value me? Do other people think I am looking successful? Do other people think this about me as well? Sorry, I've just lost my train of thought. You'll edit this out. It'll come, but it'll come. I think that, yes, the more that we want that guidance. The more that we want that guidance. Guidance, the more that we actually, some of us, at least, again, some people are less like this, but the more that we look for that. Am I doing this right? Am I doing this okay, that can often hold us back from, again, just stepping out and saying, actually, I could do this very differently. What about if I did it like this? And I think there's a lot of conversations that I see on some of the kind of private practice Facebook groups that are really encouraging because people will ask questions, especially when they're new to private practice. And does anyone have any ideas or tips about this and guidance and what should I be doing? And how do I know if I'm doing this right, essentially? And there are some amazing voices on there that really encourage people to explore and see how different people do different kinds of practices and just really think about what works for you. And I think that that is so incredibly valuable to say, yeah, we can give you ideas. We can give you guidance. There are some practical tips and everything, but we've got to be so careful that, again, within kind of a private practice community, we don't feed into this idea that there is one way of doing it right, one way of doing it in a way that sustains you, that replenishes you, that there's one way of being successful again, whatever that means, that there is just no one way to do it and really understanding yourself and how. I always say to all of my clients, actually, as well, only you can do what you can do the way that you can do it. So learn what that looks like and stop trying to do things the way that somebody else would do. Yeah.
[00:43:59] Wendy Kendall: I love that saying. It's the kind of thing we need on, like a little sticker or something that you give to your clients as like, a bit of your Enneagram merch or something. Rebecca, I love that. Okay. Thank you so much. Tess, over to you.
[00:44:21] Tess Browne: I feel that leads us quite nicely to the next question. I think it's clear that we all feel that kind of creating a healing space in our practices is really vital. It'd be really great to hear from each of you one sort of practical element that has proven effective for you in kind of promoting that sense of restoration and resilience within your practice. So, Wendy, should we start with you?
[00:44:48] Wendy Kendall: I started thinking then, and I thought, Tess is going to ask me about that one first. It's okay. So, creating a healing space. So one practical element that's proven effective in promoting a sense of restoration. For me, the fundamental in my practice has been wanting to live in the countryside. So I grew up in inner city council estate. This might sound a bit cheesy, but literally like countryside for me when I was growing up was sites where houses had been demolished. And I remember playing on demolition sites as a kid in the days before health and safety. Generation X. How did we ever get to adulthood without too many trips to a and e? But for me then, my heart absolutely yearned for being in the countryside. And what that meant was I never went and pursued a career in London and I never wanted us to go. And it was never about, what job can I do to earn the most money to do the things? It was always like, what can I do professionally that allows me to live in a place where I can breathe? And that was like the fundamental shift that led to me being in private practice. And it is absolutely the thing that has then subsequently defined the way that I structured everything that I do. So there was a point in time where I was on three aeroplanes a week, going to different cities. And along with what I described earlier, I just had to get off that merry go round and get back to being in a place where it's very quiet, where I can hear the birds sing, where I look out on my garden, where I know I can get out for a walk, and it's just wildlife and countryside. And that has been the driver, if I'm honest. It's like the anchor for everything else. So it is very practical. It's like, where have I located my practice? Where do I want to be in my private practice? But that is the driver for everything else. And it's the one thing that keeps that sense of restoration and regeneration really alive for me.
[00:47:31] Tess Browne: I love that, because that makes your entire business really built around a real value of yours. Something that's, no matter how your business evolves and shapes, if that's the anchor. As long as you face there and you've got those views and I've been to your house, they are nice views. Then you know that your business will fit around that. Yeah, I think that's lovely.
[00:47:59] Wendy Kendall: And that it will replenish and restore me, therefore. Yeah, exactly.
[00:48:04] Tess Browne: Bianca, what about you?
[00:48:07] Bianca Clarke: I was just thinking, I love that, Wendy, what you were saying, because it's not just about your business, it's about your whole life, isn't it? It's your life on a wider scale, which I think I would like the same eventually, is to be able to move somewhere that's really nice and restorative and just got lots of greenery and it's so good for us, isn't it? So I guess for me at the moment, because I do think things could change later down the line as to what's most effective for me. But I think right now, just with kids and work and just trying to fit everything in, it's just managing my own time is the one key thing that just keeps me feeling rested and restoring myself, because I can then choose what I do when I do it and the time that I have, I can choose exactly what I'm doing in it. And honestly, that freedom is just. I can't even describe that freedom compared to what it's like working full time for somebody else. I do do two days a week employed at the moment, so I'm a bit like Rebecca that I'm kind of in a bit of a mix of private practice and employed work. But it works really well for me as well, that I've got two days that is quite set. And I can't really do much within those days other than my job. But on my private practice days, I can fit in things like doctor's appointments, picking the kids up, and that just lowers my stress levels, knowing that I don't have to report to anybody else. It's just on my terms, my decision. So I think for me at the moment, that is what's keeping me going and keeping me feeling, well.
[00:49:38] Wendy Kendall: Awesome.
[00:49:41] Tess Browne: Yeah, I can definitely relate to some of that around the time management. It's that sense of freedom. It's priceless. Thank you. Rebecca, what about you? What would be the one thing that you would say made a big difference for you?
[00:50:01] Rebekah Tennyson: Yeah. So one thing that's been helpful for me, that I've also then started using with a lot of my clients as well, is to stop seeing my energy stores as, like, just one big battery. So instead, I think about it as having lots of different tanks that empty and fill at different rates. So I've got like a physical tank, a spiritual tank, a social tank, a relational tank, an emotional tank, a mental tank. And there are going to be some things in private practice, in NHS work, in life in general, that drain take from certain tanks but not others. And lots of the time, I'm sure lots of people have experienced this. Being therapists, people will say to you, like, oh, how can you do this all the time? Do you not get really worn down by listening to people tell you, talk to them about their problems all the time or whatever? And I say to them, but I love this. I would say that it drains me, but it fills me at kind of the same rate. And I know that, yes, it takes from me emotionally, but it also fills my tanks emotionally. Whereas at the end of a working week, I might feel kind of emotionally okay, but very physically drained. And then other weeks I get to the end of the week, I'm very physically full, and I feel very emotionally drained. And I need to think more about, and I really need to sit and think about this. I'm not aware of this unless I just sit with myself and really reflect on this. Which of my tanks are low at the moment? Which of my tanks need me to kind of replenish them at the moment? And which ones do I need to be paying more attention to? Because again, if I fall back on, generally at the weekend, I do this and it replenishes me. This is the kind of rest I need. That's not always going to apply to me. And if I've missed the mark there, then I'm going to go back into my week feeling just like I've done something wrong. Like, why hasn't that worked this time? So I think, yeah, one really practical thing has been that I just take a step back and I think, which of my tanks are low at the moment? Which ones need attention? And of course, when you do have lots of roles, when you are incredibly busy, especially when you do have kind of like kids or other caring responsibilities, it can feel like you don't have as much control as you would like over your ability to refill some of those tanks. But at least if we're aware that certain ones of them are low, then we might put less pressure on ourselves to do certain things, or at least to be expecting ourselves to be firing on all cylinders, as it were. So, yeah, I'm using that with a lot of my clients as well at the moment, and they are saying it's helpful. So hopefully it's helpful to some other people, too.
[00:52:30] Tess Browne: Yeah, I love that idea. It makes me really think of a TED talk that I saw recently, which talked about the seven types of rest. I don't know if you've come across it, but it talks about when people think about rest, they might think about napping or sleeping or sitting on the sofa, but it also sort of talks about the need for emotional rest or spiritual rest. And I think it really sort of fits in with that idea. You're talking about the different tanks. You would need different types of rest to restore those different tanks.
[00:52:59] Wendy Kendall: That makes sense.
[00:53:00] Tess Browne: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:53:03] Tess Browne: I think for me, I was thinking about this, and I think one of the big practical shifts within the way that I practice, which has been super restorative for me, was niching my practice. I would say sort of the first five years I was in private practice, I was more of a generalist. I would work with adults. I would see a really broad range of different types of presenting problems and people in really different places in their life. And sort of around the time that I was having this pivotal moment that I described earlier was around the time that I decided to really sort of niche down and really sort of specialize in working with the types of clients and the types of problems that I really, really enjoy and that I feel really kind of expert and confident in doing. And I think from doing that, that then had sort of knock on effects in terms of I rebranded or redesigned my website, my whole marketing strategy changed the way that I networked, the kind of events and training that I would go and all sort of changed. So it was all really aligned within this, I guess, sort of ideal client or ideal community. And for me, that has been hugely restorative and hugely nourishing, because it now means that when I look at my caseload, every single one of my clients, my ideal client, I'm working with the kind of problems that I feel really passionate about working with and really skilled at working with. And there's also a lot of overlap, I think, actually, in what those areas are and in what's important to me personally. So, yeah, that's been a huge shift for me, I think, in terms of helping me feel that my work is more replenishing than it certainly once was.
[00:54:55] Wendy Kendall: Fantastic. I'm taking a lot from this, and I'm going to look forward to getting into some of the kind of wash up between me and Tess and what we've kind of taken. I'm going to be really curious about, particularly, Tess, what you've taken from this.
[00:55:13] The Enneagram and Its Role in Therapy
[00:55:13] Wendy Kendall: Ok, just bearing kind of time in mind, Bianca, coming to you, where can we find you online?
[00:55:24] Bianca Clarke: Before I answer that, can you hear me and see me?
[00:55:26] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, well, I can hear you, but I can now see that your screen is frozen.
[00:55:32] Bianca Clarke: Yes. But I guess the main thing is that you can hear me.
[00:55:36] Wendy Kendall: And as I mentioned, it should be recording you locally as well, and it will upload your individual feed. So if you just want to kind of carry on, then.
[00:55:50] Rebekah Tennyson: You can find.
[00:55:50] Bianca Clarke: Me on Instagram at the autoimmune therapist. Bit of a long title, isn't it? But you can find me there at the moment where I am just kind of building up my social media presence. So, yeah, if you do want to find me, you can get.
[00:56:04] Wendy Kendall: Yeah, awesome. And, Rebecca, where can we find you on social media and the Internet?
[00:56:15] Rebekah Tennyson: So I'm on Instagram at enneagram psych. Enneagram is en neagram for anybody not familiar with the word. I would love you to come over to my little corner of the Internet and become more familiar with it. I will talk to you about it all day long if you would like. So, yeah, enneagram psych on Instagram and then enneagram psychology on Facebook. I have a group on Facebook for kind of therapists or health professionals, anybody kind of registered health professional or therapist in the UK who would like to learn more about the enneagram and think about how we can use it in work. So if you're interested in that as well, just ping me a message on Facebook or Instagram and I'll send you the link.
[00:56:59] Wendy Kendall: Awesome. Thank you for that. Well, thanks to both of you. And it's been a really kind of inspiring discussion and I'm so thankful for your participation in this. And I really think listeners will get a lot from the examples and the kind of experiences that you've shared with us today. Thanks so much.
[00:57:23] Tess Browne: Yeah, thank you.
[00:57:25] Bianca Clarke: Thank you for having us.
[00:57:28] Wendy Kendall: No problem.
