[00:00:02] Wendy Kendall: Hello, and welcome to this episode of inspiring psychologists. And in this episode, we are talking about growth within practices. And when I'm talking about growth in this sense, I'm not just talking about the kind of financial growth or the number of clients we talk about. What really strikes me is how private practice can shape our personal development and kind of what it means for for adult development, how it helps us to grow as adults. And so, really, this episode is about exploring the developmental opportunities that private practice offers and, you know, highlighting stories of personal growth and transformation.
[00:00:53] Wendy Kendall: And joining me as cohost today is my friend and colleague, Jeanette Fegan, who is the self worth psychologist. Jeanette, what interests you in this topic of how private practice helps us to grow and to transform as adults, the ways in which it challenges us?
[00:01:16] Jeanette Fegan: I I guess, from a professional personal perspective, it's how it's helped me. I sometimes I can feel stuck and I suppose I'm interested in am I the only one that feels like this or do other therapists feel like this as well?
[00:01:34] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Definitely. So I think one of the things that really came across to me, you know, working with people, helping them and supporting them to grow their private practice was in a and I've spoken about this a few times in some of the other episodes which is I feel like when we're living or we're bringing to life that feels really authentic to us, it's about creating much more space for many more parts of ourselves. Parts of ourselves, you know, in IFS terms, parts of ourselves that may have been exiled or that we felt as though we had to had to hide. And then, you know, you and I had a conversation about this episode before we started it, and we were talking about Keegan's adult development model.
[00:02:23] Wendy Kendall: Now I've literally just been reading it off the Internet, so I'm no expert in the in adult development models, but I was looking it up and this author was talking about how, adult development kind of speaks to the topic of defining what we want and clearly communicating those wants to the people we care about. And also this topic of self being self authoring, like like, living our lives in ways that fit with who we are and what our values are about. And I'm like, that's private practice all over. So, you know, when we're when we are validating ourselves through how we show up in work, that is something that also helps us to develop and grow as adults. So I'm really excited to, welcome 2 guests today, doctor Louise Hall and doctor Kate Jenkins.
[00:03:28] Wendy Kendall: And Louise is a counseling psychologist and Kate is a consultant clinical psychologist. So welcome to the podcast, both of you.
[00:03:39] Dr Louise Hall: Thank you so much. Thank you for having us or me, should I say? Yeah,
[00:03:44] Wendy Kendall: pleasure to be here. Pleasure. So, I would just like to start by asking everyone, and if it's alright with you, Louise, if I'm gonna come to you first and then maybe to Jeanette and then to Kate, just for a little bit of a story about how you got into private practice, why you got into private practice, and what this topic of adult development means to you.
[00:04:14] Dr Louise Hall: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I I could probably talk you have to, like, tell me to, you know, narrow it down.
[00:04:20] Wendy Kendall: So make hand gestures. Don't worry.
[00:04:25] Dr Louise Hall: I just love what you when you say talking about IFS and IFS terms and parts of us are in exile. And I think that that kind of really mirrors my my journey in private practice. And I think that I've had a seat almost like it's not been a secret, but it feels like it's been like a look, a small, tiny secret private practice. Like, I haven't kept it secret. I just have to say that.
[00:04:47] Dr Louise Hall: But while I've been doing the real work, you know, working for, the National Health Service or I work for an other other things, you know, that
[00:04:56] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Companies.
[00:04:59] Dr Louise Hall: And and I think that, like, there's part of me that I felt like they're not okay. It's not okay to be this way. And I think that's just partly how I've grown up and my family culture and also, you know, the culture in general. Like, you can't you gotta be, like, stable. You gotta do gotta go to work 9 to 5, and you're gonna fill your day with with all this very important stuff.
[00:05:25] Dr Louise Hall: And then I have a part of me that's a bit like, oh, well, what about this? And on this, I'm curious about this. And, oh, could I
[00:05:30] Dr Louise Hall: I go here? And can I Yeah? You know, that's that's interested in a few things. And not that it's not okay to be interested, but I think that there's a part of me that was an exo that felt like that's just, like, flaky. That was not not okay.
[00:05:44] Dr Louise Hall: You need to keep that in check because nobody's gonna wanna talk to that kind of person. Yeah and then at some point and you know the journey you know I was I worked in the NHS and I worked with some really, really good people. But I started to there was a lot of talk about me taking on more senior leadership roles and analysis thinking
[00:06:09] Wendy Kendall: I could do that. And
[00:06:11] Dr Louise Hall: then there was a part of me that just felt like it just crumbled inside. It just felt like, oh, it felt so, so sad. And I started to listen. I could finally listen to that part. And that's when I just went full on into to private practice.
[00:06:29] Dr Louise Hall: And it's it's yeah. I can't really remember the question you asked me now.
[00:06:34] Wendy Kendall: Well, it was kind of the story and then thinking about what this question of how that how your journey in private practice influenced your ideas about your or what did it show you about how to grow and develop as an adult?
[00:06:52] Dr Louise Hall: And I think that then, you know, yeah, you know, stepping out, you know, stepping out into private practice where it's completely open, you know, what I want to do. And I think that's terrifying.
[00:07:06] Dr Louise Hall: And I think that I've had to show up in so, so many ways that that I haven't before. And a lot of it's got to do with worth. You know, what being worthwhile, you know, self worth psychologist sitting there.
[00:07:21] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:07:24] Dr Louise Hall: Yeah. And I and it continues. And just like showing up here on this podcast, like, what do I have got to say? Do I have anything to say? And just trust that, okay, well, it's enough to just show up.
[00:07:38] Dr Louise Hall: I think it continues to be a journey of worth for me. And I could say more, but I'm just thinking I'm taking a lot
[00:07:44] Jeanette Fegan: of lot of time now and the other people also need to speak.
[00:07:50] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. And I'm I'm just making notes because I think one of the topics it'd be really good to kind of hear more about And I think I mean, the self worth is is part of it, but what I really hear a lot of times with clients is almost like those younger parts of ourselves that can't yet imagine what it means to be a self authoring
[00:08:16] Dr Louise Hall: adult. Mhmm.
[00:08:17] Wendy Kendall: And, like, they're these parentified parts that still that are almost, like, responsible for running our careers, but they're doing it with reference to what the adults are telling us to do.
[00:08:28] Dr Louise Hall: That's right.
[00:08:29] Wendy Kendall: That makes sense. Yeah. It
[00:08:31] Dr Louise Hall: makes so much sense. Right.
[00:08:33] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And and so, and again, I'm kind of interested, Jeanette, on your perspective when it comes from a a self worth point of view about how we develop that kind of, that sense of worthiness for all of the different parts of our system. But before I kind of come back and ask you about that, Jeanette, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story in private practice and and and some of your perspectives on this idea around adult development.
[00:09:04] Jeanette Fegan: Well, I can really resonate with what a lot of what you've said, Louise, there. And thinking about my transition it's an interesting word into private practice is because when I think about it now, I didn't probably realize it at the time, although I did to a degree, I felt constrained. I felt in a straight jacket. The values for the organisation I worked for didn't align with my values. And I wanted to get out of that straight jacket.
[00:09:43] Jeanette Fegan: But it was scary at the same time because and they are are well, I suppose on the adult development model, they had to be adult. Yes. Mhmm. Thinking about it now. It's really interesting, this.
[00:09:58] Jeanette Fegan: It's really interesting, Wendy, because think about it now, in a crazy kind of way working for the organization, I had an adult telling me what to do. Yes. I didn't have to take responsibility. You know I went to work 95 or whatever came home and I didn't forget about the people. I tried to forget about the organisation if I'm purely honest, truly honest, but I didn't have that worry of finances.
[00:10:29] Jeanette Fegan: And then all of a sudden when you're in private practice, you have to take responsibility for yourself and you're in conveysably. So I felt in constrained, but it was really frightening at the same time. But then, I found I suppose I found yourself, Wanda, by being on Facebook, etcetera and not that you was my parent, But yeah. Well, you have my hands so to speak and this is what you can do and you was more of a guide. You're a guide and a parent.
[00:11:11] Jeanette Fegan: Okay. So you didn't tell me what to do, but you was guiding me, and you was giving me autonomy, and that's the difference, whereas in your this multinational organizations you are and also within those organizations, talk about the values, I didn't agree. I did not agree with them in that people would be very complex that came in, and you had 6 to 10 sessions. And it to me, it's like you're going the client will be coming in for kind of an operation, so to speak. You're opening them up.
[00:11:53] Jeanette Fegan: And was it ethical to open them up with only those sessions? To me, it wasn't. So it really didn't align with my values, And that's what and and never regretted it. Never regretted it.
[00:12:08] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah.
[00:12:09] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. Yes, it's scary. Yes, there are challenges, but I wouldn't go back.
[00:12:17] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Thank you, Jeanette. I want to ring in Kate if that's alright because I know Kate, you have a journey that's still in process when it comes to, kind of moving from one context to another. And, yeah, just tell us a little bit about your story, please.
[00:12:44] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. Really fascinating. I I just found myself nodding along there if it it this parental model is fascinating, isn't it? Because I'm I'm 20 years NHS through and through. And similarly to Louise, I've just reached the point where I was in line for the senior role in in our organization in psychology, and it was one that I wanted.
[00:13:07] Dr Kate Jenkins: I really wanted it, and I had had a lot of, encouragement, a lot of validation of that from a huge number of people in the organization. It's a cute a big acute hospital. So I was ready for it, and I jumped through every single hoop, and then I didn't get it. And I was made yeah. And someone external got it, interestingly, a man.
[00:13:36] Dr Kate Jenkins: And, I was made to feel very childlike by the feedback I was given. And, yeah, when you yeah. Felt like I'm 46 and 3 quarters sort of thing. You know, I'm really, really made to feel put back in my box a bit despite all of my hard work, and I felt really let down by that and really belittled and felt very childlike. And
[00:14:05] Dr Kate Jenkins: Told off, you know, just what do you think you're doing playing with the big boys? Come on. You're not you're not grown up enough for that. And I'd always had a little bit of private practice interestingly from the from the doctors and surgeons mainly through the hospital where I worked in their private practice, sending people to me for presurgical assessments and things like that. And I just thought, you know what?
[00:14:27] Dr Kate Jenkins: What would that look like if I just start poking my head above the parapet? And and I've got a lot of friends and networks and people who are working in corporate settings. And a lot of my NHS work has been in staff well-being and people talking about resilience training and things, which I've been doing for years in the NHS with with great feedback saying, do you know what? The companies need this too. I look but that's not sitting in a room talking to patients.
[00:14:59] Dr Kate Jenkins: And what what does that look like then? And and I think for me, what's fascinating, it's full circle for me, because I actually did a business studies degree. I was fully intending to go into a corporate world. But I combined it with psychology to make it a bit less dry and ended up going full clinical psychology. And now I'm in a position where, although I'm still working for the NHS, I have said I am not taking on responsible roles.
[00:15:27] Dr Kate Jenkins: I will turn up. I will do my job. But, you know, those values that you're talking about, Jeanette, I I align with them. It's just that the senior leadership of the organization doesn't. And, actually, I feel a little bit like I've been gaslighted for the last 20 years that I've been told you need to do over and above your hours.
[00:15:48] Dr Kate Jenkins: You need to put your heart and soul into this. You need to be caring about this more than you care about yourself Because what about the patients? You know, you're being selfish if you're not sacrificing something of yourself to it. And I feel like I've lifted my head above the clouds and gone, oh, hang on a minute. Other people don't have that in their work.
[00:16:09] Dr Kate Jenkins: And maybe I am that adult who can step into these shoes and be taken seriously at a senior level, because, actually, I am at that senior level, and I and I know I am. And to get out of sounds extreme, but I felt like a sort of abusive relationship, really. And Yeah. And to Yeah. Put my head up and go, oh, do you know what?
[00:16:31] Dr Kate Jenkins: I am worthy. I have got something to offer. And it might it maybe isn't gonna be sitting doing therapy with people. And interestingly, as I said full circle, I'm now, I'm having some conversations with a company, interestingly, with my brother. So sibling sort of, you know, where he and I have always sort of thought the other one was 12, didn't have anything to offer.
[00:16:57] Dr Kate Jenkins: Now we're both building each other up and saying, no. We're we're both really, interesting professionals here and working together and maybe going into a sort of business environment with one of my siblings, which my mother thinks is hilarious because we've never been able to talk or agree on anything for the last So really developing that that adult me to be saying, do you know what? Actually, you are far more worthy than that organization was making you feel.
[00:17:27] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. I just I remember I don't know if anyone else has read this blog post by Doctor Libby Nugent, who is a British clinical psychologist, but she works a lot with, myths and fairy tales. And, she wrote a really beautiful article about the NHS's death mother. And death mother obviously is like an archetype of pretty much a toxic parent. And what I hear in in so many of these conversations, and I don't think I mean, we, you know, we can we can blame NHS, we can blame other public sector organizations, But I think a lot of bigger organizations, for whatever reason, have or or kind of almost offer toxic parental relationships, and we kind of somehow transition from being teenagers and young adults into just remaining, kind of in those relationships.
[00:18:35] Wendy Kendall: And I'm another one who never thought I would I never thought I would, run my own business. I never envisaged that I would then support other people to run their own businesses and go on this go on this other kind of journey. Jeanette, I noticed that you unmuted yourself because I think Kate said something that really resonated with you at a point.
[00:18:57] Jeanette Fegan: I'm not sure. It was I was coughing as well, so I might have just but all all of what all of what Kate has said and all of what Louise says resonates with me, and I think there's a lot of similarities and, you know that abusive relationship I can definitely resonate with that because God was it abusive
[00:19:22] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. I really, really felt stuck. And and a lot of the people around me, I didn't feel were supportive because Yeah.
[00:19:35] Wendy Kendall: That's interesting when the people around you aren't supportive of you flying the nets.
[00:19:41] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. But they weren't supportive whilst whilst I was in there because I think they was also frightened.
[00:19:49] Jeanette Fegan: Because unbeknown to them, they was that child in that relationship. Yeah. And I think taking responsibility for myself is that maybe it felt safe in some way. Maybe for me,
[00:20:07] Jeanette Fegan: safe. Maybe I needed that at the time, but don't need it now. And, yeah, it's but I take responsibility for staying there so long. But at the same time, I suppose I haven't grown up enough.
[00:20:27] Wendy Kendall: Mhmm.
[00:20:28] Jeanette Fegan: I'm so ridiculous. I haven't grown up enough to know that I can do it. I am an adult, and that's suppose that's where worth comes into it that you know you're worth more than an abusive relationship, basically.
[00:20:43] Dr Louise Hall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:44] Wendy Kendall: So, Louise, it looks like it's resonating strongly with you as well because I
[00:20:49] Dr Louise Hall: think it's resonating with all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I'm trying to do it quietly.
[00:20:53] Dr Louise Hall: No.
[00:20:54] Wendy Kendall: No. Please go ahead. Well, I
[00:20:56] Dr Louise Hall: guess I guess I I like I like we talk about the deaf mother, and and I think I can't help but obviously thinking about my life and also about school. And school school is also deaf mother a lot of the time. And I think we go from one deaf mother to the next. And we think, just so you're talking about abusive relationships, we think that that's normal. It shouldn't be because we don't know.
[00:21:21] Dr Louise Hall: And I guess we it's really difficult to wake up from that. It's really hard to wake up. And, and I I'm a home educator. I live in Devon, so I'm one of those people. So that, you know, when and and it is a reason, you know, we took my daughter, for example, out of out of school who now is 12 because it was really, really hurting her.
[00:21:44] Wendy Kendall: But, you know, when you come out
[00:21:45] Dr Louise Hall: of school, there's something called deschooling. You know?
[00:21:49] Wendy Kendall: Oh, right. I don't
[00:21:50] Dr Louise Hall: know if you heard of that. Yeah. You basically need months on end to d school. Like, basically, cleanse yourself of the system to then realize who you really are, what your interests really are, what you what you're curious about, what is it that really you long for and what you wanna learn about and and how you can tune into your own kind of body and what you how do you wanna learn? When do you need to rest?
[00:22:16] Dr Louise Hall: When you need to be active? And, and they say you need, like I don't know if the science, obviously, is correct. But they say you need, like, a month per year you've been in school to kind of d school. I I think it kinda keeps going. But I'm thinking coming in completely kind of quitting the the structures like the NHS or other kind of companies that you have to work for.
[00:22:45] Dr Louise Hall: And and being in private practice is a period for me was a period of deschooling. It felt really confusing. It felt overwhelming. It felt liberating. It felt, felt fearful, and and I hope well, how am I gonna be able to do anything?
[00:23:07] Dr Louise Hall: You know? And and one part of me, like, my left brain, right, who wants, you know, wants to organize things or he gets things sorted. Wanted to kind of replicate in some ways what I was doing in the NHS. Let's have so many clients every day and just And and then when and like you were saying, I think, Gina, it was like feeling rude. Like, I felt like I can't I can't do this.
[00:23:33] Dr Louise Hall: Like, I I don't know if I should even be a psychologist anymore. Like, I might not be meant for this job or this kind of, yeah, position. And then after a while, you know, when you could, you know, have the courage to just kinda let it settle a bit, it sort of slowly is had evolved have have evolved into to something much more curious and so much more interesting. And being able to kinda define who who I am, but also like you kind of do that through who do I like working with? Who do, who can I support?
[00:24:12] Dr Louise Hall: Who are the people that I work best with?
[00:24:15] Dr Louise Hall: And and going through that kind of journey, which is really difficult because you kinda when you train you train, it's kinda like a general practitioner in a way. Exactly. And then they're kinda starting honing in on that. And that, I think, has also been a developmental point. And then, oh, okay.
[00:24:32] Dr Louise Hall: So these are the people that I work with. You know? People Exactly. Yeah. So
[00:24:38] Wendy Kendall: I so what you described there is literally where I most often start with our clients. And that kind of process that, you know, it makes it sound as though I got it all figured out, but it took me a while to figure out. That is the, I love this idea that that it is a kind of deschooling or a desistematization or a decolonization or a, you know, deinstitutionalization. But it is this, you know, letting go of, expectation or other people's expectations or the people's authorship. And I I hadn't realized that, that was something that I needed.
[00:25:26] Wendy Kendall: And when I first left my public sector job, which is now, like, 21 years ago, but it took me, I did exactly so I made the mistake that you you said there, Louise, which was I initially recreated in my private practice the system that I had come from. You know, if we're putting it in relationship terms, it's like, oh, I went from, you know, an abusive parent to an abusive relationship. You know? So it was, it it was that kind of experience and then finally coming to a place where I'm like, I this literally just doesn't work for me. I went through the I don't know how many of you might also have these thoughts sometimes when when it's getting really tricky and you think, you know what?
[00:26:14] Wendy Kendall: I could just get
[00:26:17] Wendy Kendall: So many of us have these parts of ourselves that when it's really, you know, either when it's genuinely not working for us or just when it's rather overwhelming, we just go we could just get a job and not have to be this person anymore and just have it all sorted out for us, of course, you know, we know that we're literally running back to mama, and mama may not have changed or or had the therapy herself. So so it took me ages to figure that out, unfortunately. And I'm I'm I'm in awe of people who figure that figure that out much earlier. What was it for you? I'm going to come to you, Kate.
[00:26:59] Wendy Kendall: What was it for you that made you think? Or or what what were the things that kind of made you start thinking, you know what? This this is not the relationship for me. This has got to change. And, yeah, I'm really curious.
[00:27:15] Wendy Kendall: What were your signposts along the way, if you like?
[00:27:22] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. I I think almost almost sort of the opposite to Louise. It's same same principle, but I was being so pigeonholed into these are the clients that that you the only clients you work with. And as our department was growing and, you know, I was I was largely responsible for the growth of that department. I'm the one putting in all the business cases and getting someone in who's gonna do the pediatric diabetes bit, getting someone in who's gonna do the the ITU bit.
[00:27:56] Dr Kate Jenkins: So my job was shrinking and and turning more into, sort of the the puppeteering in a way. They're making sure that that person's alright to run that service and and and seeing fewer and fewer patients and and ending up going, I'm not I don't think I am a psychologist anymore, trying to move into sort of the system as it were, but finding it very difficult to do that because it's too big. It's just too big. And the complexity talk about complex. How many sessions do you need to Yeah.
[00:28:34] Wendy Kendall: To do therapy with an
[00:28:36] Dr Kate Jenkins: an organization with 55,000 people in it? But I think it it was that thing of of saying, actually, do you know what? In in my little tiny private practice that I had, I I was seeing people with some really fascinating stories that was giving me a lot more, I suppose, than than others. I saw a chap who was holiday phobic. Holiday phobic.
[00:29:05] Dr Kate Jenkins: And, genuinely, I worked with him for 5 or 6 sessions, and he went on holiday. And I thought, yay. That's brilliant. 6 months later, he's back again. And And I had to have a conversation with him to say, look, ethically, I feel a bit uncomfortable taking your money because you're going on holiday.
[00:29:20] Dr Kate Jenkins: He said, no, but I just want to check-in with you every now and then to make sure I don't go back to that place. I mean, his wife was going to leave him, everything. And this is a fascinating thing, and no one had to give me permission to do that. You know, I'd laid out my look. I don't think you need therapy here.
[00:29:40] Dr Kate Jenkins: But he was very clear about what his goals were from a from a one off session once every 6 to 12 months. And I I did my first walking appointment the other day with someone with functional neurological disorder who gets wobbly legs when she feels stressed. And I said, do you know what? Let's let's walk. Let's walk and talk so we're not looking at each other, you know, all the ecotherapy evidence that's coming.
[00:30:05] Dr Kate Jenkins: And I didn't have to ask anyone's permission to do that. And I felt like I was asking permission all the time in the NHS. Mhmm. And and my skill set was shrinking. So, actually, being able to broaden my skill set out again.
[00:30:20] Dr Kate Jenkins: Go on training. I just started the EMDR training. Yeah. This is great. This is waking up bits of my brain.
[00:30:30] Dr Kate Jenkins: Similarly to what you said about how you work best as well, I work I never thought I was a morning person until a few years ago, and I suddenly realized I get stuff done in the mornings. After about 2 o'clock, I'm a bit pointless. So, actually, I can ram a load of stuff. I can be sitting at the laptop at 7 AM in my pyjamas and get so much done rather than trying to do that 9 to 5 thing, and it it just works better. So it was it was about broad re broadening my horizons that had been really narrowed, and and not having to ask permission and trusting my instincts that actually it to anyone other than the client themselves who is going, yeah.
[00:31:19] Dr Kate Jenkins: Great. That sounds brilliant.
[00:31:20] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Exactly. And from a professional point of view, this strikes me. I know that Jeanette's kind of champing at the bit to say something, but I'm just going to I'm just going to come in at this point because I remember I don't know if any of you ever saw this, but I remember when we became chartered, when when I got my chartership when, you know, and at the time, the whole thing about chartership was you were being, accredited as, able to practice independently. Like, you were an adult psychologist.
[00:31:56] Wendy Kendall: Let's put it in those terms. And yet, nevertheless, there's it's so often the case that, you know, when I'm talking with clients about diversifying their practice, about being able to make meet clients in different ways, which is what you're describing, Kate, being able to make professional judgments based on experience and expertise, about how to meet clients where they are and meet their needs and support them in, you know, diversified ways. A lot of people are really afraid of being attacked or criticized or, you know, somehow falling afoul of a system that is that is doing that kind of toxic parenting thing. Whereas, in other ways, we're being told that we're adults. We're we're we're, you know, professional adults now, and we can be trusted to do things in a way that is ethical and safe.
[00:32:53] Wendy Kendall: So, Jeanette, you you were you were listening to Kate, and I could see that you you were wanting to say something.
[00:33:01] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. Lisa, it's what I've thought about it before, but it's when you said your brain was waking up, Kate. And it's like it feels like we've been in a long, deep sleep all these many years, however many years, for each individual of us. And, obviously, the brain, I will speak for myself, isn't fully away yet because there's still parts that aren't comfortable in showing up in certain situations. But it's like I use I suppose if I think about clients, it's like clients come to us, and they've been in a long sleep, and they still are.
[00:33:43] Jeanette Fegan: And we wake in parts of the brain up to through education and different things like that. But also, when I think about the systems that we I was part of, he used to go to these meetings and he used to dread them because I thought the things have been to get sorted, people are just going to talk about the same old thing and nobody will speak the mind, basically. I usually take them probably. That's why I come and stop sometimes or most times.
[00:34:13] Jeanette Fegan: And if you speak up, it it shake it's like being in a family. You speak Yes. Shakes a blasted system and nobody likes it. And then you're the bad guy. You're the Black sheep.
[00:34:29] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. You're the black sheep, and you're not targeted, but you're aware of things that are going on, so to speak. So but then how can when you're start to be enlivened, and I can feel it even now talking about it, and I'm finding this absolutely fascinating, this conversation. So thanks for organizing it, Wendy. But it's like, I can now say what I want to say without being frightened of the repercussions, basically.
[00:34:59] Jeanette Fegan: Just as blasted Pamela. You know, you can speak your mind. You can be an adult as far as we are adults. And then you no longer need to be frightened of the system. Exactly.
[00:35:15] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Louise, I want to thank you, Jeanette. Louise, I wanted to come to you as well to just also ask that question about what were the kind of signposts and the signals along the road to, yeah, knowing that you needed to make a big shift?
[00:35:33] Dr Louise Hall: Well, I, yeah, I was I saw that question and I've been thinking about it. I don't
[00:35:40] Dr Kate Jenkins: think,
[00:35:41] Dr Louise Hall: I think there's been loads of signposts that I've been ignoring for a long time. Like a little bit of what we've all been saying. If we just kind of do what you're this is what I'm supposed to be doing and I think for me it's been about I know. I think there's a part of me that knows that this is what my heart longs for. That's my desire, But I can't have that.
[00:36:05] Dr Louise Hall: And so I think there's been several points in my life where I could have gone into private practice or have my own business, but I haven't out of fear or maybe I just haven't been ready. Maybe it hadn't been the time. It obviously wasn't the time because then I would have. But, I think lately, it was the point where, like I I said a little bit earlier, was that kind of conversation. I like, I was surrounded with good people in the job that I was doing.
[00:36:36] Dr Louise Hall: I was working in a crisis team. And I had really good people, really good leadership, and it was it was awful organization, not because it meant to be, but it just is or was. And I thought okay. So if I can't if this is not for me, if I can't make this work, then then I just have to be in private practice. I have to.
[00:37:08] Dr Louise Hall: There is no other way, I think for me to feel like I can thrive in my own life because I could feel that kind of sense of, like, numbness come in, the the kind of restlessness and depression that almost that sets in that, like, that's yeah, okay. So this is life. What's the point? What's what's mean? I couldn't see the meaningfulness of of, of my life, even though things are really good, you know, like around me.
[00:37:37] Dr Louise Hall: Right. Good kids. Good husband. I you know?
[00:37:41] Dr Louise Hall: good stuff. But and I and I thought, no. I it just has to be private practice. And I just I can be a little bit assertive and post maybe at times, but I just sort of said, no. That's it.
[00:37:53] Dr Louise Hall: By this time, I'm down. I'm out. Even though I hadn't necessarily prepared what I needed to prepare. So might not recommend that. But but it it's worked out.
[00:38:04] Dr Louise Hall: It's worked out.
[00:38:05] Wendy Kendall: Made it work.
[00:38:07] Dr Louise Hall: Yeah. I mean, this morning, like, this morning, I I've been skiing this morning. I'm in Sweden skiing. I've been up in the mountains before I came to talk to you. Because I can work from here for this time.
[00:38:19] Dr Louise Hall: And, you know, we're gonna be in Egypt for a little while, and we can, you know, like, just, like, this like, assessed for life has kind of returned. You know? Exactly. Yeah. So Yeah.
[00:38:33] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And when I think about what thriving means, so, you know, the model of, I know I know from a literature point of view, Seligman's model of PERMA, p of flourishing, which is, described by the the, acronym PERMA, p e r m a. You know, we we could always criticize these models. There's always pros and cons to them.
[00:39:01] Wendy Kendall: I think one of the, additions to it was v, so it became this perma v model, and that is basically a model of adult flourishing and it and p stands for positive emotions, then there's engagement, positive relationships, meaning, accomplishment, or a sense of agency in the world, and then the v stands for vitality. And, those things together, I mean, when I think back to when I was in a job and also I went back to a job, so I had this experience whereby when we moved back to the UK for a little while, I I was kind of looking for partnerships and thinking about how I could get this piece of work that I'd been doing, you know, out into the world and and with more companies at the time. And I got offered this JOB and went back into a job. And I remember the one of the first conversations I had with the my line manager, and I said, oh, yeah. So I've got this opportunity.
[00:40:08] Wendy Kendall: I'm going to be, improving my French, and so I've got, you know, I'm gonna put a thing in my diary on a Thursday morning at 9 AM or 10 AM because I'm gonna just do a French lesson. And he was like, what? How? What? And I'm and then I started thinking to myself, are you telling me I can't even make a decision to have a French lesson on a Thursday morning now?
[00:40:32] Wendy Kendall: What's all this about? Like, you're gonna get your money's worth out of me. What what are you saying? You know, if I really need to, I'll cancel it or move it, but, normally, this is not a problem. So it just didn't compute to me that in the context of my working life as an adult with 20 years of experience behind me, I couldn't any longer make a decision to have a French lesson on a Thursday morning for, like, half an hour or an hour.
[00:40:56] Wendy Kendall: I'm like, this don't work for me. Anyway, I resigned within 3 months. Yeah. I get that.
[00:41:03] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:05] Wendy Kendall: And, you know, for all the for all the joy of being in a team and all those other wonderful things we get from being in workplaces, just the inability to be able to make decisions for myself as a rational adult was just, I couldn't do it. So I'm thinking of it. The question I have is what what have you learned that could help psychologists who are longing for a different way of being in the world? And, Louise, I'm gonna come to you because I know that one of the things that was very important to you was this idea of being able to move or of having your personal autonomy and your autonomy as a family and being able to to travel and so on.
[00:41:51] Dr Louise Hall: Yes. So I think that for me, just like I realized I've got some somewhat nomadic blood, I think. It's like in my genes or
[00:42:13] Wendy Kendall: unlike the modern day, but yeah. Just
[00:42:16] Dr Louise Hall: teasing. Yeah. I know. I'm just kidding. Exactly.
[00:42:20] Dr Louise Hall: And and for for some reason that, you know, being a psychologist, it's it's like, oh, you know, it felt like that's not like the done thing. But I guess now, like, you know, before COVID, I was working only online. During COVID, everything went online. It just sort of all of a sudden, things seem like, oh, like, this could maybe actually be a possibility. So so slowly, you know, like listening in to first, I think it was a kind of like an embracing of my all my parts.
[00:42:54] Dr Louise Hall: I'm not saying that I know all of my parts yet, but, you know, my inner community, that that there is this part that is, like, curious and interested and wanting to, you know, create, both in terms of my practice, but also, like, in in my life, in my world. I wanna world school my kids. I don't want to just help educate my kids. I want to world school my kids. And, and I I think a a part of the process has been to really go in inwards and noticing kind of the the coupling of the protectors and the exiles.
[00:43:32] Dr Louise Hall: You know, if you wanna go in IFS terms, but where, you know, that you you can't do that. And and then, like, feeling quite a lot of shame for even thinking that. And then kind of going to that part, the shame part and going, hey. You know? Can we have a listen?
[00:43:46] Dr Louise Hall: Can I can we check-in with you? What's going on? And in that kind of finding the truth, which is, of course, I want stability, and I want to be stable. I want to be predictable for my kids and for my for my practice. And it doesn't mean that I'm unpredictable, flaky, unreliable because I do these things, because I can do it in a really grounded way.
[00:44:10] Dr Louise Hall: So I think a lot of my the way I work, I think, is I need to go inwards and I need to kind of notice what's happening inside and do that work to be able to navigate what's sort of the right thing for me. And and out of that, you know, we have a base. You know, we're Devon based,
[00:44:28] Dr Kate Jenkins: and I'm UK based.
[00:44:29] Dr Louise Hall: And we're kind of getting all of those things in order. You know? Kind of you really actually do this legally? Like, is this okay? And getting all of that kind of groundwork laid down and then and then being able to just, you know, going I'm I'm Swedish.
[00:44:45] Dr Louise Hall: So, you know, like, my Viking roots. Right? So we've come back here for, to do some skiing in in a beautiful, beautiful, area of Sweden where we've got roots that go back to the 1700s, which is quite exciting. Yeah. So that's a part of our journey as well is kind of, you know, getting to know our roots and where we're from.
[00:45:05] Dr Louise Hall: And and, and then we're able to, like I said, Egypt, and that we're gonna come back, you know, to the UK. And I think that I couldn't have done that without doing that inner work, and I can only do that inner work with support of other people. And I think for me, you know, like a therapist I've worked with for quite a while who helps me through lots of difficult times. I have a supervisor, but I also have a marketing person that I'm now working with. And I think and then building a network of psychologists who who not necessarily want to be nomadic, but but who have similar kind of values and
[00:45:47] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. So building your your kind of tribe from there as well.
[00:45:51] Dr Louise Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:53] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. People around you.
[00:45:54] Wendy Kendall: I love that. Kate, I want to come to you and ask as well what, you've kind of learned from this process that you think could help other psychologists who are longing for that different way of being in the world?
[00:46:12] Dr Kate Jenkins: I I think yeah. What I've learned about taking the step outside is that there are so many people there to support you and you know, it's okay to to put out there. Things like LinkedIn, I found really helpful and the Facebook groups and things like that. It was fascinating, actually, something Jeanette said earlier on about feeling like you're allowed and feeling like you're qualified to do stuff. It was actually my brother, who I might be doing some business with, said to me, why haven't you got doctor on your LinkedIn profile?
[00:46:46] Dr Kate Jenkins: I said, well, you know, you don't like to sort of it feels a bit weird. It feels a bit showy offy. And he said, don't be ridiculous. It's what makes you different to someone who's just read a book about well-being and is spouting it. You're actually qualified to talk about this stuff.
[00:47:02] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Like, stepping into that So I
[00:47:04] Dr Kate Jenkins: think looking
[00:47:05] Wendy Kendall: personal persona.
[00:47:06] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And I own it and said, do you know what? I've got some qualifications in there. So I haven't just read a book.
[00:47:15] Dr Kate Jenkins: So it did something about looking for the the supporters and building that tribe that Louise talked about that is not necessarily other psychologists, but the marketing people. And I had a a really helpful meeting with a guy. He's a friend of my cousin's who I met at his Christmas drinks party,
[00:47:36] Dr Louise Hall: but he's a bit of
[00:47:37] Dr Kate Jenkins: a LinkedIn guru. And he said, no. I've talked to you. I said, oh, what are your fees? He said, no.
[00:47:43] Dr Kate Jenkins: I'm not gonna charge you. People will just genuinely help you because they want to boost you up and they want to lift you up. And having spent 20 years in the NHS where people will clamber over your still breathing body to get to the top of the train themselves. Actually, there is a really, really lovely supportive community out there of people who will offer you support. And and, you know, I've got a lovely friend who who's helped me with building a Google website and, you know, thinking about, referral streams, thinking about getting yourself out there, giving you ideas and support, and and and that sort of, mutual promotion.
[00:48:28] Dr Kate Jenkins: You know, I've had friends saying, well, I've I've been asked to do this talk, but I think it's probably more your bag, actually. So can I can I direct them over to you? Yeah. Fantastic. And I'll do you know what?
[00:48:38] Dr Kate Jenkins: I've got a client that I think would probably be better off with you than me. And that sort of mutual support because it feels I think people assume that if you go into private practice, it's a very lonely place. And even in just the last few months that I've really been trying to to make my bed in it, I've realized it absolutely isn't. There are a lot of people out there. And with the connectivity that we have now, it's so much easier to access them as well.
[00:49:06] Dr Kate Jenkins: You don't have to go to a conference. Like you say, Louise, you know, you're you're sitting there in Sweden, and we're we're finding an awful lot in common. My my plan is, Lee, incidentally. As soon as my son's in the
[00:49:19] Dr Louise Hall: I'll meet I'll meet you there. Okay? Yeah.
[00:49:21] Jeanette Fegan: Me too. Oh,
[00:49:23] Dr Louise Hall: I'll meet you there.
[00:49:27] Dr Kate Jenkins: But just that realization that I could work wherever I want. Yeah.
[00:49:31] Dr Kate Jenkins: at the moment, I'm choosing to do it at my kitchen table with my dogs asleep, and we're going up into the new forest later. But, you know, that's because I'm still building my roots, I think, here, and then it'll be that solid base from which you can trampoline off. But it's yeah. So I think that, for me, that's the biggest takeaway from the last few months is how many people will offer you help and support. And then, you know, if you do want to invest a bit of money, when you do start building up the bank accounts a little bit, that there are those more professional relationships, coaching, you know, people like yourself, Wendy, those sort of professionals who are saying, I can help you grow your business and genuinely do it, which is a lovely guess.
[00:50:17] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I'm very mindful of time and even though I'd I think at some point we'll we could all sit round a campfire and, like, really put the world to rights as they say, over, you know, over several hours. When you think about, you know, what what have you built in that has worked, and what have you built in or tried to build in or done where you've been like, you know what?
[00:50:49] Wendy Kendall: That's going down a bunny hole or it's not going in the right direction for me. I don't know if there's anything that, kinda comes to mind for you about things that have worked particularly well or things that haven't that have been a bit of a bunny hole. I can think of a bunny hole one. So for me, Going with the models of other people's success was always a bunny hole. No matter how plausible it looked, no matter how good the testimonials, if it didn't feel like it was integral to my values or how I really felt like I wanted to show up in the world, it was always going to be, a wasted churn.
[00:51:39] Wendy Kendall: Not wasted actually, because you always then learn, no, that's not the right direction, but it was always going to be a dead end and I was gonna have to come back to, actually, how do I wanna show up in the world? So I'm I'm always a little bit like, you know, be be careful of holding the gurus too high. One of the, I I did this kind of little meme once, that I put up online where, it made me realize that as you're going along this journey, you'll get lots of people who might say to you or the message could be, you can't be successful without me. And I realized that the people we need in our tribe and the people we need around us and supporting us are the ones who say I believe in your ability to do this. And there's a there's a shift in that.
[00:52:29] Wendy Kendall: So for me that was always kind of that's become my kind of litmus test now, if you like. Jeanette, I don't know if anything strikes you about the times when you you've known you were going in the right direction or when it turned out you were going in the wrong direction.
[00:52:46] Jeanette Fegan: I suppose when you're when I was first starting out and I I didn't know I didn't have a a road map so to speak and someone's saying to me, you need me, it might have resonated with me. And thought, yes, I do, because obviously, they know they've got this shiny website. They know what they're talking about, etcetera. So I I suppose I was, initially clambering around knowing not where to go, basically. And I think it's really so you get let down.
[00:53:23] Jeanette Fegan: I got let down wrong roots, basically. And I spent money that I didn't need to spend, but I thought I needed to spend at the time. But I think it's really important to be because otherwise, you're replicating what someone else wants like we did in national organizations. Yeah. But when you're true to yourself, which can be scary because then you're the adult and you're taking responsibility, you're thinking, well, nobody's gonna listen to this.
[00:53:54] Jeanette Fegan: Nobody's gonna want to hear my voice, etcetera. But then you realize people do because for the very fact that you're authentic and you're genuine. And when you like that when I'm like that, it really comes across, I believe and people connect with that. Yeah. So there's a lot that can be fear.
[00:54:15] Jeanette Fegan: That's normal in private practice, but I think it's really important to know that sometimes, yeah, you you'll get it not get it wrong, but you'll because I don't want to use that word because you can't get it wrong if you don't know. You're getting it wrong in the first if that makes sense. It's just you're learning. It's like you're learning to walk on your own 2 feet.
[00:54:41] Jeanette Fegan: not having somebody there and you're taking and and then you take the stabilizers off and then you'll be able to ride your bike and then you'll be able to shoot down the road and you'll be who you're meant to be in the first place
[00:54:57] Wendy Kendall: Love it. Thank you. I love that metaphor as well. It's exactly that right. Louise, you're also nodding your head.
[00:55:04] Wendy Kendall: For you, what's been the kind of yeah.
[00:55:07] Dr Louise Hall: I'm just resonating with it. And particularly that what you're saying, Wendy, and Owen, you're also Jeanette. But how when you feel really unsure and scared and unsafe, you know, emotionally or or say, like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's so easy to even if there's a part of you who knows that there isn't, like, that one solution. But it's so easy to to kind of be looking for other people's kind of structures or ideas or solutions.
[00:55:38] Dr Louise Hall: And particularly, somebody's like, oh, I can sort you out.
[00:55:42] Wendy Kendall: Yeah.
[00:55:43] Dr Louise Hall: In 3 months, you'll be Yeah. You know? You're like, oh my god. Yeah. I mean, there's obviously a party who goes, really?
[00:55:52] Dr Louise Hall: But, but I think that for me, that is definitely a a robot. We're starting to look like a lot like, on maybe other people's websites or how they do like, that's, like, when it starts taking taking taking a little bit too much time. I think that that's definitely a rabbit hole. And another rabbit hole, I think, is also the kind of self, deprecated. Like, it's all the self kind of, it's not gonna work.
[00:56:20] Dr Louise Hall: Pitying. Self pitying. Well, that's not gonna work for me. I'm just, like, so much more damaged than anyone else. Like, I'm especially damaged.
[00:56:29] Dr Louise Hall: So I'm not gonna be able to make it. I think that's I can see that now almost with a little bit of humor and a bit of joy, like, joy when I can when it starts kind
[00:56:39] Wendy Kendall: It's painful at the time.
[00:56:41] Dr Louise Hall: Right? But I'm I'm
[00:56:42] Wendy Kendall: smiling because I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I know those parts as well.
[00:56:46] Dr Louise Hall: And I do. It helps me. There was somebody who said, who said, You're not that specially that you're not that special. You're so damaged that you can't make this happen in a in a very kind of compassionate way. And that helps me sometimes when I end up, they're going, oh, yeah, you know, I'm not, you know, hurt that that I'm not going to be able more, not more hurt or especially hurt than anyone else that I can't make this happen.
[00:57:13] Dr Louise Hall: So that helps me coming out of that one. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there are more. Yeah.
[00:57:21] Wendy Kendall: No worries. And I just wanna come to you, Kate, as well for your reflections on that question.
[00:57:30] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. I think I've probably got one of each, really. I think the the rabbit hole that I found myself going down sort of probably a couple of months ago was just say just trying to grab in work from everywhere and just saying, yeah. I'll do that. Yeah.
[00:57:45] Dr Kate Jenkins: I'll do that. Yeah. I'll do that. I need to train in ADHD assessment. I need to train in that.
[00:57:49] Dr Kate Jenkins: I need to train in that. I need to train in that because I need to have 50,000,000,000 strings to my bow, and I absolutely don't. Absolutely. And that would just be a nonsense. And actually trying to figure all these bits, it sort of started being like a game of whack a mole in my head.
[00:58:03] Dr Kate Jenkins: You know, this idea, this idea, this idea. You've got to just shush shush a minute. What's the core business? What is the thing that I love doing? And I I love standing up in front of a room of people and teaching them how to look after their psychological well-being.
[00:58:18] Dr Kate Jenkins: That to me is great. And I don't mind if that's nurses, doctors, corporate execs, schoolchildren, whatever. That that to me, I like standing up in front of a room full of people. That is that is what I enjoy doing. And so sticking to that as my core business.
[00:58:37] Dr Kate Jenkins: But the so the the the biggest thing that I think I've had to sort of get my head around is being bold and and getting out of that self deprecating. But that's bringing us full link back to that abusive relationship, isn't it, where you've been told, oh, you're not that special. You know, I was actually Yeah. Even called arrogant in my workplace saying,
[00:58:57] Dr Louise Hall: well, hang
[00:58:58] Dr Kate Jenkins: on a minute. I have got a doctorate in this. And and actually being able to go out there and say, I think I can offer something to you which you will find beneficial and believing that. Genuinely believing it. And if they haven't got back to you in 2 weeks, just nudge.
[00:59:19] Dr Kate Jenkins: Do a nudge. And that you know, to me, that that's so rude. You know? And on LinkedIn, think of it like Facebook and thinking that, actually, I can't connect with someone I don't know. Of course, you can.
[00:59:32] Dr Kate Jenkins: That's the whole point of it.
[00:59:34] Wendy Kendall: It's You're allowed to talk to strangers in your private practice. But, actually,
[00:59:40] Dr Kate Jenkins: But, actually, I can go to people. It's you know, it's it's not like, you know, a Graham in in, I don't know, Hull wants to to connect with you on Facebook, and he thinks your profile picture's nice. You know, that's creepy. But on LinkedIn, it's absolutely okay.
[00:59:57] Dr Kate Jenkins: I think we've got a lot in common with sharing liking a lot of the same posts. You know? Let's connect. And having random teams calls for 20 minutes with complete strangers, but going, yeah. I get you and you get me and, you know, let's stay in touch.
[01:00:14] Dr Kate Jenkins: That I really like, and and there are always he said, you know, some of those who are saying, oh, do you know what? The first the first person that contacted me through LinkedIn actually said, do you know what? I think I I can sort you out absolutely, you know, as a recruitment agency. And on further explanation, I realized what he wanted to do was sell me back into the NHS. I've just got out of that.
[01:00:39] Dr Kate Jenkins: Why why would I want to go on 6 month contract? He said, no. But we can put you into a trust for 6 months, and you can sort out all their staff well-being needs. A, I can't do that in 6 months. And b, I'm just fighting to get out of that system.
[01:00:56] Dr Kate Jenkins: Please don't put me back in it. And it's not about the money, you know.
[01:00:59] Jeanette Fegan: Oh, you can't
[01:01:00] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. And c, you can do that. C, you don't know you don't know. I can't say it. You don't need him to do that for you.
[01:01:11] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
[01:01:13] Jeanette Fegan: It's interesting where you said Kate, sell you back into the asset as if you were some commodity. I thought, no, you're an independent, but I I I get what you're saying and as as you was talking before and, you know, when we're frightened, that part of ourselves, it's frightened. It just came to me as as we was talking. It's like you're running back home to the parent for approval. See, I can do this job, mama or daddy.
[01:01:45] Jeanette Fegan: So the the the organisation is the parent, and once you're in there, you're approved of then, so to speak, but there are conditions attached. Yeah. And and basically, that's why you get out because those conditions are too limiting.
[01:02:01] Wendy Kendall: So, again, I I've loved this conversation so much, and I'm I'm very mindful of time and, you know, meetings and schedules that, everybody, needs to kind of look to still as an adult in our practice, nevertheless. So I just wanted to say thank you so much to Kate and Louise. Where can we find you on social media? Louise, what's, are you on social media? What's your website?
[01:02:28] Dr Louise Hall: Well, a little bit. A little bit. But maybe my website is probably the best place to find me at doctorluishall.co.uk. And then I'm a wee
[01:02:36] Wendy Kendall: bit on Instagram and LinkedIn. Perfect. Yeah. Love it. Kate, how about you?
[01:02:46] Dr Kate Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Same for me. LinkedIn, doctor Kate Jenkins, and my website's doctor Katejenkins.com.
[01:02:53] Wendy Kendall: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. And, yeah, it was really great to, have
[01:03:03] Dr Louise Hall: I love the idea of the campfire. You should probably Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Around the campfire.
[01:03:07] Dr Louise Hall: We'll we'll sort it out.
[01:03:08] Wendy Kendall: Watch this space.
[01:03:12] Dr Louise Hall: Yeah. Thank you so much. It was really lovely meeting you too, Kate.
[01:03:15] Dr Kate Jenkins: Thanks so much, everyone.
[01:03:16] Dr Louise Hall: You too. Yeah. Wendy.
[01:03:18] Jeanette Fegan: was lovely to meet you both.
[01:03:19] Dr Kate Jenkins: You too. Yeah.
[01:03:20] Jeanette Fegan: Thanks, Will.
[01:03:22] Dr Kate Jenkins: Will. See you, Molly.
[01:03:24] Jeanette Fegan: Definitely. Yeah.
[01:03:27] Wendy Kendall: Brilliant. Okay. So thank you, everybody. Kate and Louise, I've got 5 minutes before I've got to go to, a meeting, so feel free to just press leave studio. Kate, it may be with your signal that, it and it would be really good to get all of the upload done, but if you just press leave Studio and then see what it says about whether you need to kind of log in at some point and just allow it to finish with its upload, and it will do that in the background from, a window if you leave it open somewhere.
[01:04:00] Dr Kate Jenkins: I'll let it do
[01:04:02] Wendy Kendall: it. Yeah. It will. Lovely.
[01:04:03] Dr Kate Jenkins: I can walk off and leave it now for the rest of the day.
[01:04:07] Wendy Kendall: Alright. Perfect. Thanks, Megan.
[01:04:08] Dr Kate Jenkins: To meet you both.
[01:04:09] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. You too. I will be in touch over email, and just let you know about the next steps with the podcast and when it's due out and all the rest of it. Brilliant. Thank you so much.
[01:04:21] Dr Kate Jenkins: Okay, Jeanette. Yeah. It's saying leave leave and open uploads. There we go.
[01:04:27] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Exactly. So, Jeanette, we've got a minute to, just quickly think of a couple of topics that that really struck you about the conversation and then we'll get into just a very quick kind of summary at the end of this.
[01:04:43] Jeanette Fegan: I think the similarities between us all, was really interesting, and that IFS model and the parent and child and growing up. Yeah. At least think about whether we ever do grow up fully but we're on that path to growing up. I mean, in the terms of the Kegen model.
[01:05:12] Wendy Kendall: Right. Hold those thoughts. I'm just gonna think of a couple of things as well, and then we'll just do this last couple of minutes.
[01:05:51] Wendy Kendall: So I'm gonna just say a little sentence and kind of bring you back in to say those things that you were just saying. So, Jeanette, I enjoyed this conversation so much thinking about all of the internal family dynamics that come out through our private practices and how it can be developmental for us. What really struck you in our conversation? What did you particularly kind of switch on to?
[01:06:23] Jeanette Fegan: I I like the the fact that we are more capable than we think we are. But the models and the systems that we make ourselves part of doesn't enable us to think that way because it it perpetuates what we unconsciously think about ourselves in the first place. And, potentially, although, I'm sure it's not done intentionally, those models keep us stuck to serve their purposes, not our purposes, and not the purposes potentially of the clients we serve. So really thinking about it now, I think whether it's too strong at all is it's our duty, can't think of a better way of putting it, to be aware of our parts so that we don't perpetuate those models of keeping stuck.
[01:07:25] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, we're talking there about the ways in which organizations inadvertently I think, you know, we don't necessarily think about how organizations set themselves up to be our fictitious parents.
[01:07:43] Jeanette Fegan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:07:44] Wendy Kendall: You know, we talk a lot in leadership about moving away from those models, you know, those parental models, but actually I mean, it's kind of in we could probably have a whole other podcast about what do grown up organizations do and how do they negotiate relationships with their employees. But when I think about, you know, these topics today, the thing that really struck me was this whole perspective of self authorship, like who is steering the ship. And when I think about that from an IFS point of view, I call it being, you know, I call it working with your inner leadership team, and it's kind of and I was going to say I hesitated because I was going to say being the CEO of your inner leadership team, but I don't know that it that CEO is the right model. I think at the very least, we are the guide who that to me feels more like you know, if we talk in transaction analysis terms, it's much more like I'm okay as me in self leadership. I'm okay and you're okay.
[01:08:55] Wendy Kendall: That's what I'm saying to all the different parts of myself in my inner leadership team, and we're gonna do this thing together. And so for me, that's that kind of self authorship, self leadership in private practice. And the the really interesting thing that was such a light bulb moment for me was how that can scare other people. Mhmm.
[01:09:23] Wendy Kendall: and and that would make sense. Right? Other other people who are not yet at that place developmentally for themselves might feel scared about that and therefore be more critical, more attacking to kick you down. Okay. I'm I'm going to have to leave it there, I'm afraid.
[01:09:43] Jeanette Fegan: Thank you, Wendy. It's been really, really fascinating, and I loved it. Really loved it.
[01:09:50] Wendy Kendall: I've really enjoyed, working on this project with you, Jeanette. It's been great to kind of put this, episode together, and, thank you to all of our listeners. Yes.
[01:10:00] Jeanette Fegan: Thank you. Bye. Bye, Wendell. Bye.
