[00:00:00] Wendy Kendall: Hello and welcome to this epioside of the Insirping Psychologist Podcast and in this episode, we are talking about healing your body, mind, and nervous system through your private practice.
[00:00:47] Wendy Kendall: So I'm here today with doctor Christina Barker as my co host this time, and, I wanted to co host this with Christina because so much of her practice is also about bringing in different aspects of our, you know, our somatic experience. I I'm just, I'm freewheeling here, Christina, so you're gonna explain this a lot better than me, but when I think about your much more kind of holistic perspective and integrative perspective in your practice, I know you do a lot of this stuff of kind of bringing in, physical and somatic well-being and nervous system and this whole topic of kind of vitality. So. What are you interested in exploring in this episode today, Christina?
[00:01:42] Christina Barker: Well, as as you've said, Wendy, my whole sort of journey through becoming a psychologist and and developing sort of in the private practice and my own specialist area has been really that external search initially for how we can heal, how we can better heal, humans starting with myself first and foremost. So that journey took me, you know, around the world, really, to places like India and then Nepal to do, various yoga trainings and trauma training.
[00:02:15] Wendy Kendall: Basically the eat, pray, love of private practice. Is that right? You did that whole thing. She's like, you could say that. I'm not sure I put it the same way, Wendy.
[00:02:25] Christina Barker: Yeah. Absolutely. And that sort of, one, the escape is nothing from the challenges of working within organizations because of the stresses. And secondly, because I wanted to leave North Stone unturned, I want to find out, you know, how we can work to help to support healing, as opposed to just sort of the cognitive talking therapies and and I knew that they definitely were not working for many, many people, particularly the traumatized young people and adults that I've worked with. So, you know, this topic of integrating the body mind, I mean, my first business was called, Mind Body Yoga, so that yoking of the 2.
[00:03:13] Christina Barker: Little was known that I think we were not integrating it as much, but, you know, we've come a massive, this past decade to understanding these connections. So I'm really keen to know about, you know, how other psychologists are integrating, the body mind and and that regulation of the the nervous system into practice, their own healing and, any other ideas that might inspire my work as well.
[00:03:44] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Exactly. I love that. I'm really, delighted to be joined today by doctor Jo Mueller, who's a clinical psychologist and, coach for parents, and Jo's going to tell us a little bit about herself and her practice in a moment, and also Doctor Kat Aguilera, who is a counseling psychologist and, specialist in working with people and organizations who are in, I think you describe it as highly challenging environments. And so I I'm so fascinated because I know both of you come to this topic also from very different perspectives, and yet I'm sure we're gonna find commonalities and we're gonna find kind of diversity of practice and thought.
[00:04:30] Wendy Kendall: So first of all, can I come to you, Jo, and just ask you to give a bit more of an introduction to yourself, your practice, and a little bit of your story of how you got into private practice, please?
[00:04:43] Jo Mueller: Yeah. Well, thanks very much for having me, Wendy and Christina. So I, I guess I've I've always worked with parents. Even before my clinical training, I worked as an academic psychologist working on projects around parent and child mental health. And then after my clinical training, I worked in in CAMS, in London for a number of years, predominantly within the the neurodevelopmental teams, but with a a variety of children.
[00:05:14] Jo Mueller: And I I always spent time kind of trying to develop the provision for parents as well while while I was there because I think, you know, it was just in me
[00:05:25] Jo Mueller: the work I'd previously done, and and it just seemed to kind of a big gap. I I also worked on a research trial at King's where we developed a new parenting program for parents of children with autism. And so that that was kind of how my career was going. And I kind of always assumed that I would carry on working in the NHS and within universities. Then, you know, kind of curveballs come, don't they?
[00:05:52] Jo Mueller: And my my husband
[00:05:55] Jo Mueller: Had a new job, and it required us to have a more international focus. So and at the same time, I just had my first child. So kind of various things came together, and I was sort of given a shove really into the private world, which I guess was a a brilliant opportunity, but it was also a bit, you know, a bit jarring at the time. And so I've kind of built up my private practice quite slowly, I think really. Not I I kind of didn't go straight into sort of setting up a business.
[00:06:29] Jo Mueller: I kind of did it. It grew with with me as I was growing as a mother in a way and and as my children were were growing up. So I've been able to do it in a kind of gradual way, which has allowed me to sort of feel out, like, what do I like doing, what do I want to do more of, what what is working for my well-being. And so now I have a mixture of, one to one clients, who all parents now. So I only work with parents now.
[00:06:56] Jo Mueller: I don't work directly with children at the moment. And I also have a group program that I run, with parents, which is focused on it's called the guilty parent club, and it's a kind of multipronged approach to to help well, parents break that that cycle of guilt and stress that we we get ourselves into so easily. And I've also just set up a new company with some colleagues, and you're it's called the neurodiversity practice, and that's really bringing together kind of everything that I, you know, love doing. So it's really around parenting my work. Not just not sort of parenting strategies only, but really parental mental health and well-being.
[00:07:42] Jo Mueller: And then also thinking about parents of neurodivergent children and parents who are neurodivergent themselves.
[00:07:50] Jo Mueller: of where I where I'm at at the moment.
[00:07:53] Wendy Kendall: Perfect. Love that. I've got some, I've got questions, but I'm going to come to Kat first and ask the same question. Can you give us a bit of an introduction, Kat, to you and your practice and what what you're about?
[00:08:07] Kat Aguilera: Sure. Well, I'm a trauma psychologist essentially, so I specialize in all areas of trauma, which obviously involves a lot of the body and the nervous system. So that's kind of where I my trajectory has been starting out from working in the prison service as an assistant psychologist, from there to studying, qualifying, and also working in NHS services, assertive services with psychosis, and spent a long time working in in that area, kind of 10 years, and then decided that I wanted to offer training as well. So I started developing training for organizations, especially in the area of trauma, which I think sometimes is not really available to services within the NHS. So I wanted to develop more of a trauma informed practice style of approach in the previous organization that I worked in.
[00:09:04] Kat Aguilera: And then I just knew that I was heading more towards working with frontline services. That was my area. My private practice has started working with fire service, police officers. And I think and paramedics and and that work really I really enjoyed that work, and so I knew that that was the direction that I was headed in. And now I'm working with a charity called Combat Stress and working with veterans who have served no longer in the military, and we work with complex PTSD.
[00:09:36] Kat Aguilera: And and on the, resilience rises front is why I founded resilience rises as a provider for training and also courses for anyone that's experienced adversity, trying to overcome that, maybe still working frontline services, having to deal with symptoms, and that's kind of where I am now.
[00:11:03] Wendy Kendall: Because I know this was a big thing for you, and then I'll I'll come to you, Jo and Kat, as well.
[00:11:11] Christina Barker: Yeah. That was, it was a big part of my journey, and I'm not I'm not sure at what particular moment. I think it it is continuous. There's this constant sort of dripping through or as I say in my practice that dropping into this deeper state of awareness where the insights come and and the healing journey sort of continues. I'm discontinuing.
[00:11:43] Christina Barker: But right from I suppose I similar to yourself, Kat, in terms of, you know, started in the forensic you've ended years and seen the unmet needs there with the ACEs. What's the ACEs? You know, adverse childhood experiences. But, you know, as we know, many people, they're having, the abuse and and neglect, and and just not meeting that needs. And my career has always had that underpinning, and I've often got lost along the way through the sort of searching out for different strategies and modalities to pull together, and I'm still pulling that together now.
[00:12:20] Christina Barker: And I'm going like this for it's that sense of, you know, the brain, the layerings of the brain from how the baby develops and the layering of the trauma that, you know, in terms of complex trauma and the the layering and tearing of the interventions that I suppose, you know, from the brainstem calming that right down in terms of the breath and the body. The heart rate regulation on that level and then the emotional sort of limbic cortex and bringing that into to balance and then the thinking, coming on top of that and and the that we've had or certainly continue even to have to this day top top down as opposed to that bottom up approach. We have made a lot of progress in our understanding on some levels, but it's still controversial. It's debated out there as to you know whether it's scientific. And there's always this sort of conflict between this medical model, you know, big pharma and the funding that comes in there versus you know this other is it gentler, but you know more natural approaches.
[00:13:30] Christina Barker: To heal it from the inside out. So actually it's you know that's the solutions but actually realizing in my own journey is that inside out and the meanings that. Come from the, you know, the dripping down, the dropping in, and then the insights bubble bubble up.
[00:13:47] Wendy Kendall: Right. So you found that mechanism or you kind of integrated that that dropping into your different parts of your awareness and different parts of your experience, which then, yeah, into Yeah. Body, into different parts of your nervous system and kind of realizing that that was able to be something transformative for you in your practice and your healing. And I'm just going to, come to Kat as well because, obviously, you were talking then about the commonalities where you, both started out in forensic settings and, for you Cat, how has this kind of journey of dropping into or or connecting Yeah. It
[00:14:43] Kat Aguilera: Yeah. It's so interesting because when I was working in the prison service, that's where I really started tuning in to my nervous system, and there is is something very primitive that happens, I believe. There were days when you would walk into work and there would be almost kind of an electricity in the air, And I started noticing that in my nervous system and thinking this is interesting. And those are the times I think that really peaked my interest and especially when we are working with offenders. I used to deliver groups, and there is a certain element of awareness that you need to have and the feelings that you get with different clients.
[00:15:26] Kat Aguilera: So So that's when I started paying attention. And then I went into my training and I did my own personal therapy, which was a, a requirement of my course. And that is also then where I started understanding a lot more about how we hold trauma in our bodies. And I started then realizing that the cognitive model that we are all fundamentally trained in as psychologists wasn't quite meeting that need for a lot of people in terms of they could think about their difficulties logically, but there was an emotional dilemma against that. And so I started noticing that along my training course and then I discovered weight lifting.
[00:15:26] Kat Aguilera: So So that's when I started paying attention. And then I went into my training and I did my own personal therapy, which was a, a requirement of my course. And that is also then where I started understanding a lot more about how we hold trauma in our bodies. And I started then realizing that the cognitive model that we are all fundamentally trained in as psychologists wasn't quite meeting that need for a lot of people in terms of they could think about their difficulties logically, but there was an emotional dilemma against that. And so I started noticing that along my training course and then I discovered weight lifting.
[00:16:10] Kat Aguilera: Oh, that sounds so interesting. And that's where I then started noticing that as an outlet for some of the stress that I was experiencing all throughout my doctoral training. And as we all experience, it's significant amounts of stress at different moments alongside life challenges. And I found that was a way to start regulating my nervous system. Whereas previously, it might have been other things such as alcohol and things like that.
[00:16:37] Kat Aguilera: I'll be completely honest, there were ways that I needed to down regulate some days and and that sometimes would be the strategy as we all know from our clients as well. So that was then my bridge. It was my bridge into understanding that the physical aspect is so fundamental alongside the psychological, and I haven't looked back. I think it's something that I just, it forms the foundation of my daily weeks, you know, my daily days and my weeks. And and so I think it's a really key part of me being able to do my job effectively and be present with my clients.
[00:17:15] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Jo, is any of that resonating with you? I'm really curious because I don't I don't know if you had a background in forensic, but it didn't sound, from what you said, as though as though you had. But, I can imagine some of that is resonating with you.
[00:17:30] Jo Mueller: Yeah. Just hugely. No. I don't have a background in forensic at all, and, obviously, I've kind of come from a different world, but there's so much overlap. And I think the the things that you're both talking about in terms of coming to this realization that these cognitive approaches just aren't going to cut it is just so pertinent for for parents.
[00:17:50] Jo Mueller: You know, you you kind of going through your life and then you you you become a parent and suddenly you've got all of your kind of childhood experiences are, like, come, you know, crashing into your daily life with with this child, and you're suddenly having to to kind of understand this and and find a way to regulate yourself whilst also trying to regulate a a tiny little being, and it's it's a lot. And and I think that understanding that thinking logically about and I know that cognitive therapy isn't just obviously about thinking logically. I think, you know, that's a simplification, but I think so many parents come to me and they're like, well, I know that you know, I know x, y, and zed, but I still, you know, I'm still really struggling with elements of of of trauma or being triggered by my child or, you know, not being able to relax or feeling feeling low or feeling just this intense shame and guilt on a daily basis. And so we we absolutely have to come in with a much more emotion focused, approach and and also with children. I mean, I think there's that there's that sort of shift has happened as well.
[00:19:09] Jo Mueller: You know, from when we were growing up, there was a much more sort of behavioral understanding of how you would parent a child. And now we're we're realizing that, you know, that has its limits, to put it sort of put it mildly. It has downsizing its limits, and I think we're coming at parenting from a much more emotional standpoint and thinking a lot more about regulation. And, certainly, that kind of co regulation between parent and child is really at the kind of core of everything that that I do in my work.
[00:19:43] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And, the thing that, a couple of things come up for me around that, which is, there are so many there are so many psychologists who go into private practice because they also have caring responsibilities and it's not just with children, there are also a lot of psychologists in private practice who have caring responsibilities for maybe older adults, some whether it's parents or siblings or or whatever. But, obviously, the autonomy and flexibility of private practice can provide a good environment then for, you know, that flexibility that means that you can also meet some of the additional caring responsibilities. But then we've got this additional challenge then, which is not just for the work that we do, which requires for us to, you know, find a way to support our own regulation, but also then having to, as you said, Joe, help other people around us to be regulated in our family systems and and so on. And I think another element of that which can be challenging for us as psychologists is in private practice, inevitably we somehow end up contending with isolation and we often work on our own and it's like okay then how are we doing this kind of co regulation thing?
[00:21:11] Wendy Kendall: I'll just share a little bit about my kind of, experience and story in this as well because obviously I'm not coming to this topic from the same perspective being an occupational psychologist. I do think about what are the ways in which we can be more vital and bring more kind of physicality into our practices because we know that, you know, flourishing as a human being means, also being able to kind of use your body, be healthy, be fitter, and you know to and all those kinds of things. But this whole topic of being really good as psychologists at almost like the the rationalization and staying highly functional and being able to continue working and hold space for people. But trauma stuff in life then getting coded in our bodies, I'd had direct experience of that in about 2012, 2013 which was and I've talked about it in this series earlier I was really busy with work, running development centers and assessment centers for big companies all across Europe, on airplanes 3 times a week, and and all this stuff. And then my mom and my auntie died within 4 months of one another.
[00:22:39] Wendy Kendall: And mentally, I was I was dealing with it. And then physically, the wheels fell off. And as you were saying, Christina, I had to go back into I had to really go back to the the heart of it and, like, rebuild all the physicality. Christina, you you unmuted. I saw that.
[00:23:03] Wendy Kendall: So you just to bring you in.
[00:23:06] Christina Barker: Yeah. And I suppose, you know, with that concept of resilience and, you know, I mean, it's, again, it's complicated, but that sense of, you know, I can deal with this. I can deal with this. I can just start visit visit envisage you running around busy in your business. Yeah.
[00:23:22] Christina Barker: Well, that's been a key factor really, continues to be this really importance of, you know, this sub hustle culture, and, you know, the trainings through psychology training, and and then the setting up of your own business and how, busy that actually can make you. Yeah. And and and the the learnings there around, you know, that real need to slow down, and and be more compassionate, in order to connect with what's going on internally and regulate the nervous system. But, you know, when we're in the our head and we're in the world functioning as we're sort of supposed to or expected to, to, all that inner world and inner workings sort of gets left behind or almost we're encouraged to sort of almost cut it off in a way and dissociate. Yeah, like even now, you know, sat here still.
[00:24:19] Christina Barker: That's just not my mode of being. So I'm like, thinking, right, I need to move. And, this is just like, yes, it fits right through, really. Yeah. Sometimes it does almost unfortunately take those, you know, crisis events, you know, bereavement or, you know, you know, health scares and things like that that that put the brakes on and we were like, woah, we've got to stop.
[00:24:45] Christina Barker: And then, like you said, the healing comes and the unraveling of all that tension, stress, you know, maybe trauma as well that that's built up and contracted the whole system and that ease in line of the time it then takes to to thaw and let go of all that
[00:25:01] Wendy Kendall: holding. Yeah. Yeah. It does take time.
[00:25:04] Christina Barker: Fine. Yeah.
[00:25:06] Wendy Kendall: Kat, you you wanted to comment there.
[00:25:09] Kat Aguilera: Yeah. It's really interesting that you mentioned there that resilience that we need to maintain because that's fundamentally the the the message of the resilience rises part of the business because we do have the high stress jobs. Right? So we are the containers for other people, their traumas, and their emotions, and we have to maintain presence and safety the entire time. However, if our own internal sense of safety isn't where it needs to be, that can become extremely challenging for the nervous system.
[00:25:47] Kat Aguilera: And I have had times that I can specifically remember when my nervous system has shut me down because it's it's a survival mechanism that happens. And it's almost like, okay. We can take all of this, but not today. And as you know, during my doctorate, particularly, I just remember there were days where, you know, because I was doing therapy alongside of it as well, so there was a lot that was coming up. And it's really essential to be able to tune in and listen to our bodies, and that can be difficult when we're so used to being, as you said Wendy earlier, so functional.
[00:25:47] Kat Aguilera: And I have had times that I can specifically remember when my nervous system has shut me down because it's it's a survival mechanism that happens. And it's almost like, okay. We can take all of this, but not today. And as you know, during my doctorate, particularly, I just remember there were days where, you know, because I was doing therapy alongside of it as well, so there was a lot that was coming up. And it's really essential to be able to tune in and listen to our bodies, and that can be difficult when we're so used to being, as you said Wendy earlier, so functional.
[00:26:22] Kat Aguilera: So it's an ongoing challenge to maintain that resilience in my view.
[00:26:27] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Exactly. And, Jo, I think you mentioned earlier when we, you know, were having a chat before that we started the podcast recording around recognizing that there were aspects of your own experience in practice that then led to starting the guilty parent club because that meant you could also be in more of a community and you were you were, yeah, you were looking for that.
[00:26:55] Jo Mueller: Yeah. I think it's it's a really interesting kind of symbiosis in my practice because, I mean, I I worked in in parent parent work and and neurodivergence long before I became a parent, and the both of those things, you know, eventually have become relevant to me personally as well as professionally. So it's really this kind of interesting journey where I I sort of had an interest in those things, and now they're kind of relevant in the both of those spaces. And so when I'm working with with parents on a daily basis, it both it's invigorating, but it is also challenging from a nervous system point of view, especially if you're talking to somebody who who has experiences that maybe, you know, that you relate to, because that, you know, can be quite, yes, can be quite triggering. And so on the one level, it's great because you you can empathize and you can reconnect on that deeper level with it.
[00:27:54] Jo Mueller: But on the other hand, sometimes it can be a lot, and so it is obviously, you know, crucial for all of us as you've all been saying that we have to find those ways to to make sure that we're we're steady. And I think that having this the guilty parent club community, for me, I was just thinking that we had one of our live calls last night. And sometime and we have them in the evening. And sometimes, you know, just beforehand, I'm thinking to myself, gosh. I'm I'm so I'm exhausted.
[00:28:24] Jo Mueller: I'm so exhausted, and and I do this. And then every time I get off those calls, I'm just completely, like, alive and, you know, I just find them so, yeah, that being part of that community is is such an important part of my well-being. So, yeah, I I guess what I'm saying is it's kind of a double edged sword, I think, sometimes in our with our personal and our professional lives.
[00:28:52] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that really strikes me is when we have these very purpose driven practices, it often comes because there's an alignment between experiences we've we've had that we're making sense of and that we have drawn meaning from, you know, and we're and we've developed a sense of purpose around that. But then, as you said, we you know, we bring people into our world, therefore, and into our practice that, that we resonate with, and that resonance can actually amplify some of the, some of the experiences, you know, things that we we may have tackled, but maybe there's some remnants in that. And, yeah. So it is interesting that even when we have and I think, actually, if I remember some that there was some research about the risk of burnout in very purpose driven organizations was higher than if the organization didn't mean anything to you.
[00:29:58] Wendy Kendall: You know, if you, it's got this AI thing going again. Sorry. I used my hands and then did you see that AI thing on the recording? Anyway, I'm not doing I literally don't know how to turn it off. Anyway, so, you know now I've completely lost my track.
[00:30:19] Wendy Kendall: Can anyone remind me what I was talking about? Thank you, Christina.
[00:30:22] Christina Barker: A good point that you made there was around, you know, that I've lost it as well. We'll see. And
[00:30:30] Wendy Kendall: anyone can relate with us and help us remember what we were talking about.
[00:30:35] Kat Aguilera: So a purpose driven organization versus something that doesn't mean much to you?
[00:30:40] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Thank you, Kat. That was very, very well done of you. Yeah. So, you know, there there's research that organizations or or when we are working in organizations that are very purpose driven or working in jobs that feel very purposeful to us.
[00:30:55] Wendy Kendall: We're at higher risk of burnout, and it makes sense because if we don't give a stuff about what we're working on, then, you know, the the the the way in which it is impacting us is is very different. So I think as psychologists in private practice, it's worth also knowing. As you said, Jo, it's a double edged sword. It brings us into connection with our purpose, and it also brings us into connection with the things that were underpinning some of that purpose. Yeah.
[00:31:29] Wendy Kendall: So I'm wondering then, you know, what are your go to tactics? Christina moved to Cornwall and dips in the sea every day. And,
[00:31:41] Christina Barker: But, yeah, I was gonna say environment is a big one for me to move, you know, to Cornwall to be near the sea. That was the intention. It is also a bit warm here in comparison to the rest of the the UK. So there is that sort of sense of being out walking on the coastal path. I actually spend a lot of my time looking after animals at the moment, but, so there's something there about, connecting with a being and that love that you can connect there with animals, and the tactile sort of, you know, the stroking, the cuddling, and there is that element there that I find really healing.
[00:32:22] Christina Barker: Definitely. Being outdoors in beautiful scenery and how beautiful that is. And art art has been something that I particularly find, allowing me to creatively express, you know, what's going on internally as well. But, yeah, I'm interested to know what Kat and and Joe have, found sort of helpful in terms of practice, both in terms of the psychologist and, you know, in the work as well as the sort of person that builds maybe the resilience.
[00:32:54] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Jo.
[00:33:00] Jo Mueller: Yeah. I mean, I think I I also use the the outdoors, I think, very much so as kind of regulating. I live next to a mountain, so kind of climbing it is,
[00:33:15] Kat Aguilera: is Yeah.
[00:33:16] Jo Mueller: Sort of, like, you know, it works on a number of fronts. It's, you know, it's obviously physically regulating using a lot of energy, but there's the the kind of beauty element. But I think that's also kind of a symbolic element of it as well. Sort of climbing that mountain, I I think there is something, something about that.
[00:33:35] Christina Barker: About the success when you get to the top type as well as the movement.
[00:33:38] Jo Mueller: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that journey of, like, you kind of, you know, keep going. And then there's also that sort of enjoyment of the the come the sort of free fall on the way down in a way.
[00:33:50] Jo Mueller: And I Yeah.
[00:33:51] Jo Mueller: know if I'm expressing it clearly, but I think it's it's no it's almost like noticing in life there's times that feel like you're more in a state of flow, and there's times that, you know, that you feel there's a slog. And, I I know this sounds a bit cheesy, but I I'm I'm not really saying it for the podcast. I genuinely do do feel this when I'm when I'm doing it.
[00:34:12] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Absolutely. Definitely. It was one of the in fact, you know, talking about that Jo, there's some articles that I've written about, my experience mountain running. So I don't live too far from the Pyrenees.
[00:34:26] Wendy Kendall: And even when we were back in the UK, I lived in North Wales, so obviously it's quite kind of mountainous in that area as well. And there is something just very physical and, as you said, almost kind of emblematic of realizing that even when you're at the bottom of a big hill or a mountain, as your client and, you know, it looks like it's this enormous stretch, but as you're just taking one step after another so there's a kind of physical embodiment of of our practice almost as we kind of make these journeys. Yeah. And I think that physical embodiment of experience I mean, I I'm not a specialist in that at all, but I think there's something incredibly powerful. Maybe maybe you guys all know what that's about.
[00:35:15] Wendy Kendall: Kat, you're smiling there, so what's your feeling?
[00:35:21] Kat Aguilera: Just smiling at the physical embodiment part of it because I think it is really important to pay attention to all of that regardless of which activity you are performing or undertaking, whether that's a walk, a hike. I think for me, what I've learned is that the activities that I tend to enjoy the most are ones that keep me fully present in in the sense that there is nothing else that I can think about except the the task at hand. Sometimes that can be a walk, but I tend to gravitate more to adrenaline based sports. And so that for me, regulates me. That's that's where, for me, my mindfulness is there, to be honest.
[00:36:06] Kat Aguilera: So it will be sometimes a heavy lifting session or my other sport, which is Brazilian jiu jitsu. And that for me has taught me a lot about moving my body and a lot about problem solving under very high stress circumstances. Yeah. And, I think that that really pairs things up for me because it's almost that regulation of the nervous system in a very difficult challenging situation, but also needing to engage my cognitive thinking to be able to get out of those challenging environments. And so it's very representative of the things that I also communicate with the message around resilience.
[00:36:46] Kat Aguilera: It's almost having that physical and psychological well-being joins together. So for me, it is you know, I I love the sea. I'm Mediterranean. I'd love to live by the sea, Christine. I'm a little bit jealous that you're by that you get to see the sea every day, and that's something that I'd love to get back to, because that's that's where I also find my calm.
[00:37:05] Kat Aguilera: But day to day, I think I've realized that for me, it's got to be more of the the high adrenaline stuff.
[00:37:13] Christina Barker: So that's quite often overlooked, isn't it? I think there's been that big drive for people to do mindfulness and that sitting is all on focusing on the mind, and some people are just like, what? I can't do that. And and validating that as a real thing, you know, actually, maybe sitting down and being mindful isn't, you know, for you at this time. Not to say never, but not you in particular, Kat.
[00:37:36] Christina Barker: I just mean in general, there's a whole vast amount of the population that that struggle with the concept of of mindfulness sitting, but that sort of sense of actually we can be mindful and present like you say in the movement, you know whether it is a martial arts and some of those be really actually mindful and beautiful and those gentle movements with the breath, like the Tai Chi and things. But, you know, all the sort of more adrenaline seeking you know getting that boost from something that isn't harmful. You know many people in with complex challenges have you know get some of those hits from like we've said earlier in terms of you know whether it's drugs alcohol, you know, high risk activities. But, you know, if it can be something that is set up, you know, whether it is bungee jumping, rock climbing, you know, all those things. Yeah.
[00:38:25] Christina Barker: It was a buzz. Yeah. It helps to feel present and connected in the moment versus just sitting still and focusing on the mind and the breath, which, yeah, doesn't suit everybody. So I think it's important to bring that in, really. It is.
[00:38:40] Kat Aguilera: And it's a commonality that I've found with the frontline services that I've worked in and having been, you know, somebody who's worked in frontline services as well in my life. It's something that I do notice that they struggle more with that kind of mindfulness and breath work and things like this but they are a lot more, They gravitate a lot more to things such as adrenaline sports based on their roles, you know, but obviously in an environment that they can control. And so that's the fundamental aspect whenever I'm working with someone, the 3 things I will always asking ask them is how's your sleep, how's your nutrition, are you exercising, you know, and let's just make some small changes towards that because the physical well-being is what will also tie in with the psychological well-being from personal and professional experience.
[00:39:29] Wendy Kendall: Jo, I can imagine there's an integration between of what we're talking here with how parents and children work together and how you then support parents to support children. Because I remember, you know, my son when he was 6 years old kind of really struggling with the whole concept of sitting down at a table in his classroom for hours at a time and needing to get out and move his body. So, you know, this applies across the spectrum. Right?
[00:39:59] Jo Mueller: Well, exact yes. Exactly. And that's what I was just thinking when Christine was talking is that, you know, we need to learn from children. Like, children know that when they're, you know, excited or nervous or angry, they they let it out physically. You know, they don't, yes.
[00:40:16] Jo Mueller: We can we can teach them things like breathing exercises, but really that takes a very long time to to bed in. What's really more effective is them moving their bodies and and getting it out in a physical way. And I think as we grow into adults, we forget that. We forget this element of kind of playfulness, and that's something I talk about with parents. I don't intend to talk about self care.
[00:40:38] Jo Mueller: I talk about, like, playfulness and the different dimensions that that can take, whether it's physical or more sort of mental, whether it's in a group or kind of on your own. And we we look at different ways that we can be playful and kind of reconnect with that sort of more childlike element of ourselves. And I think, you know, when when Kat was just mentioning that, you know, the first thing to ask people about is, you know, sleep, exercise, nutrition. Now you talk to parents of young children. Those three things are incredibly difficult to actually achieve.
[00:41:11] Jo Mueller: So even just meeting, like, our basic needs as parents can be really, really tough and on a practical level, but then also on a level where parents start to feel guilty about doing certain things to to to even meet those really basic needs. So, yeah, I think it, you know, it all it all ties in. Yeah. It all ties in together.
[00:41:37] Wendy Kendall: So I'm gonna ask you all in kind of the exam question now. No. Not really. Because one of the things about this whole topic of physical vitality, is, is, you know, you you are you think about the as you mentioned, Cat, that kind of hustle culture. I remember initially when I was, just starting to get sick.
[00:42:03] Wendy Kendall: So after my mom and my auntie had died, and then I I had a flu. And then at the time, I was also training for, starting to run some half marathons in the mountains and things. And the mindset I had at the time was, it was almost like I'm I'm running in order to get rid of energy, but I was not running in a regular in a in a way that left me regulated. I was running in a way that left me depleted, But I think there's such a there's almost like this, there can be an unhealthy relationship that we have with our nervous system, with vitality, with these topics where there's a culture of almost, like, using it to dissociate. So what so the exam question is, what's the difference?
[00:42:58] Wendy Kendall: How do we know the difference between the 2? What would be some tips? Jo, I'm muted then, so I'm coming first to you.
[00:43:07] Jo Mueller: I think this this speaks to kind of compassion and self compassion, which is something I work with, you know, an awful lot, and I you know, I'm sure Christina and Kat do it as well. It's about that. It's where yeah. Everything we do, whether it's exercise or anything, are we coming from a place of trying to kind of shut something down, like punish ourselves, you know, criticize ourselves? Or are we coming from a place of, you know, understanding what's going on for us, tuning into that, honoring it, noticing it, and then kind of responding in that that compassionate way, which doesn't have to be gentle.
[00:43:47] Jo Mueller: It can be firm. Christina talks about fierce compassion. So, you know, for me, it's it's it's really about understanding, yeah, where that's coming from, yeah, from a Yeah. Compassion focus model, I guess.
[00:44:03] Wendy Kendall: I love that. I've written down fierce compassion. I love that, expression. Kat, fierce compassion for you?
[00:44:14] Kat Aguilera: For sure. Yeah. I think that has actually been one of the key transitions that I've had to make in going ahead with these kinds of high adrenaline sports, you know, because it can really be that fine line between enjoying a sport and then doing it to kind of the extreme in terms of how much you're training alongside how much stress. Because stress is stress to the body, and that's what I've learned over the years. That it doesn't differentiate between physical stress or psychological stress, and you have to modify depending what's going on in your environment, in your personal life, in your relationships.
[00:44:51] Kat Aguilera: All of these things need to be taken into consideration. So if I'm not asking myself that question of what is my goal for this week and how can I use training as a way to look after myself, I can tend to shift into that other side of overtraining, not taking into account my nervous system and the outside stresses that I've got going on? So I do have that awareness. I lose it sometimes, but I it's a constant that for me is just a constant piece of work. It's just something to know, but I'm now coming from such a much more compassionate approach in terms of training is my self care.
[00:45:29] Kat Aguilera: It's not a punishment. And that has been a transition that I've made over the years, I think.
[00:45:35] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. So that just wasn't that just the the knowledge itself wasn't a switch that changed everything. It was working with that over time to kind of make that a reality in how you showed up. Awesome.
[00:45:49] Kat Aguilera: Yeah. Absolutely. So it wasn't a light bulb moment. It was just a transitional kind of process where you realize, actually, I do have this tendency. I need to be careful of that.
[00:46:01] Wendy Kendall: Awesome. Christina?
[00:46:03] Christina Barker: I think as well, because I am on and off into my fitness. But my yoga journey I don't know when people hear you the word yoga. I often don't refer to it in my practice because people have this idea of I'm gonna be in my gym kit. I'm gonna be bending, stretching, and you're gonna be coming over and moving me and, oh, I don't do that. I can't stretch.
[00:46:23] Christina Barker: All that comes up. But, yeah, there there is that, you know, in my personal practice with yoga, overstretching, because I'm hypermobile, pulling ligaments out, causing myself injuries. So I have learned on the number of levels. But if we talk about the physical body, to really apply across all areas, but, like, really holding back in. And I suppose there's this tense, tendency to to, you know, to do too much with things.
[00:46:56] Christina Barker: But this awareness that comes, I think that, like you say, it's not something that stops happening, but bringing it into the moment of, you know, with yoga now, my movements, I'm laying on the floor. I'm connecting like the back body with the earth. It's like restorative. I'm sliding, like, connecting into that, you know, in a brain stem, the the lizard sort of part of the brain, that reptilian survival sort of connecting to the vital functions. But But I know that, you know, there's still that tendency to to not practice that regularly or, you know, at times, you know, things have been, like, having to do things and feeling like, you know, beating myself up because I'm not doing it.
[00:47:42] Christina Barker: But this is an ongoing journey. It's not that I I I've stopped being critical of myself and I'm always compassionate. I suppose the awareness comes of recognizing, you know, when I'm pushing myself too far, when I'm not listening to my body, and and I say constantly, but regularly tuning back in to to what I'm doing and noticing when I when I've gone too far one way or the other. And, that middle point, I suppose, of of the balance, finding balance in everything. And that doesn't mean that everything's perfect.
[00:47:42] Christina Barker: But this is an ongoing journey. It's not that I I I've stopped being critical of myself and I'm always compassionate. I suppose the awareness comes of recognizing, you know, when I'm pushing myself too far, when I'm not listening to my body, and and I say constantly, but regularly tuning back in to to what I'm doing and noticing when I when I've gone too far one way or the other. And, that middle point, I suppose, of of the balance, finding balance in everything. And that doesn't mean that everything's perfect.
[00:48:15] Christina Barker: It's far from it. It's just noticing how far I've gone to one extreme or the other and and trying to gently bring it back as opposed to pushing, pulling, and forcing myself to do everything, in a certain way. That makes sense.
[00:48:31] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So I'm really I'm kind of appreciating and kind of thinking about what you're saying here around, you know, how do we recognize the times when it's not when when we've got out of balance again? And what I think is really important to recognize is how many, of course, how many external factors push on that? So, if I think about in in our business, right, helping psychologists to diversify and thrive in their private practices, There are if I just think about the social media content that comes across my screen on a daily basis because the algorithms on these platforms have learned what we do, what we talk about. There are so many messages around hustle culture.
[00:49:23] Wendy Kendall: There are so many opportunities to kind of get into negative comparison, And there are so many messages around, you know, that that that kind of touch on things that might make you start to go into that kind of striving again. You know, there's so many cues for high striving that are out there in the world that, it's easy to start picking them up and for them to start filtering into other ways of showing up. And as you've both said, you know, thinking about how do we notice that and come back again, and I guess that's like a fundamentally regulating system. Right? That one it's not that it stays still, it's that it comes back.
[00:50:12] Wendy Kendall: Jo, you had a comment on that.
[00:50:16] Jo Mueller: I was just thinking about the the sort of really fine balance between striving and kind of passion because I think and that's something I'm really, like, trying to walk this tight rope in my own practice at the moment. I'm at that point in my career. My children have you know, they've got out of the baby years. I'm starting to have a little bit more time to to focus on things I want to do. And I'm doing them, and it's really exciting.
[00:50:46] Jo Mueller: But, you know, how how do I make sure I'm not doing too much? You know, how where's the line from exciting to sort of overloaded? Yeah. And I think it's not it's not actually easy to to do. So, yeah, I think it is.
[00:51:03] Jo Mueller: It's an ongoing process, isn't it, of of, like you say, of awareness and, yeah, just trying to stay on the tight rope, I guess.
[00:51:13] Wendy Kendall: It is. And and yet what I'm really learning from you 3 is that this isn't obviously just a cognitive thing. Right? It it's not it it is underscoring how important it is to have practices within our practice that drop us into awareness or help us to sustain that awareness of where we're at in the different aspects of our experience, whether it's mentally, emotionally, somatically, in terms of our breath, in turn you know, that's and that there's something about that physicality or the connection with our body, breath, etcetera, that is that that bridge. And I know I know, Christina, with you, with breath work and yoga, and I'm sure, Kat, also with the work that you, do and integrate, there is something very important there about the body and the breath as a bridge to the nervous system.
[00:52:17] Wendy Kendall: Am I understanding that correctly? I don't mind who jumps in.
[00:52:24] Christina Barker: For the body and the breath and the nervous system, vagus nerve that connects up right through you know, the heart, the gut Yes. All the organs and and the brain, so that that that really regulates or supports the regulation of the entire body. And that sense that we talk about of, you know, things being heartfelt. So I I relate to you there, Joe, in terms of, you know, that heartfelt passion and and how that, you know, that meaning and purpose that we bring to our practice is kind of turned into the the point of striving. No.
[00:53:01] Christina Barker: I'll take you not too much, but, yeah, I feel my nervous system rubbing up people when I refer to some of those things, but yeah that ability to regulate the body back into. A more settled state. Through the breath and how the breath and sort of diaphragm or diaphragms that we've actually got throughout the body allow us to, you know, connect in through the breath to that vagus nerve, really, that just does bring, us from the sympathetic to that sort of fight, flight, survival part of the brain, and connect us more to the the parasympathetic. So that sense of the calm and the rest in the digest in, and it allows us to then shift from that survival part of the brain back into the more emotional, the regulated, and and the cognitive. So, again, that sort of tiered approach.
[00:54:01] Christina Barker: Yeah. It's true fundamentally. Yeah. The breath is a tool. But as I think Joe said earlier, sometimes that is really challenging, for parents who are busy.
[00:54:11] Christina Barker: People may be in a prison setting who are have got lots of chaos around them and have not really had, some of those foundations in the brain, maybe led at their early stages of life. But, yes, then the the child as well, you know, are they able to take on board just the breath work? It's about really connecting to the body first, and then the breath, you know, and then the the cognitive. So the the mental sort of being functioning when we've got all the the lower tiers on board, if that's, sort of what you were asking there.
[00:54:52] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So it's a real underpinning of our ability to also kind of then come into the, the thinking part of our brain, essentially. Yeah. So, I'm gonna come to both you and, I'm going to come to Kat and Joe. I I just wanted to ask you, what might be your daily or regular practices that underpin your sense of being able to regulate yourself in your through your practices?
[00:55:32] Wendy Kendall: What are your kind of daily go to's? Kat, I'm gonna come to you.
[00:55:38] Kat Aguilera: For me, it's training first thing. So that will be either, Brazilian jiu jitsu or a lifting session. So I'll just kind of make sure that I'm keeping my emotions and my physical well-being in check really through that regulation. And that will kinda set me up for the day because I work late late into the evening, with my private practice and so for me it's important to really kind of set myself up early in in the morning. And then from there, it will be ensuring to kind of check-in with myself sometimes through the day even if I'm doing a particularly tricky piece of trauma processing work that can also affect my nervous system and my breathing.
[00:56:26] Kat Aguilera: And so I'll make sure to slow down my breathing. I also have to make sure that I'm regulating that in other people, the clients that I'm working with, And it will also something that I've gotta be careful of is that when I get really busy, sometimes I forget to eat. And nutrition is big part yep. Big, big part of keeping ourselves well and keeping ourselves in energy essentially. And so I'll make sure if I haven't planned properly, that can be a tendency that just kind of falls off track.
[00:57:01] Kat Aguilera: So for me, it's it's keeping those really fundamental things in check on a daily basis. So sometimes it's not even a a weekly. It has to be a daily practice. So yeah. So those are the those are the and, of course, sleep.
[00:57:15] Kat Aguilera: So that will be the last thing that I will make sure to get, you know, as much sleep as I can, quality sleep as well as I keep my bedtimes consistent, my wait times consistent as well even on weekends just because of regulating, that circadian rhythm and not throwing it off too much. So those are my my fundamental daily practices, I'd say.
[00:57:38] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for that. Joan, coming to you about your practices.
[00:57:45] Jo Mueller: Yeah. I think I think the thing is that that there's no magic wand, is there? So I think, really, the things that the others are saying, those are the things that that we we all kind
[00:57:57] Wendy Kendall: Foundation, really.
[00:57:58] Jo Mueller: Yeah. Yeah. There's you know, it's I wish I had a kind of magic exciting other thing to say, but I think there isn't. It it's just it's more for me, it's about, like, how how you can try and build some of that into your life when there's something about your lifestyle that means those things are are difficult, whether it is that you're a parent of young children or you're a carer you've got other caring responsibilities or, you know, myriad of the factors that can make it difficult. And that's that's something that I spend a lot of time working with my clients on and thinking about, you know, tweaks, little tweaks, things that can take take the edge off, I guess, and how can we build things in in a sustainable way, that doesn't feel like a a kind of big mountain of self care.
[00:58:51] Jo Mueller: I think that for me, it's sort of making it making it manageable and realistic. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:58] Wendy Kendall: Definitely. I know that one of the gone so, Christina
[00:59:02] Christina Barker: what's in there, Joe, there is this thing of and, sometimes I'm still looking for this magic wand, and and people that we work with want that, you know, what is the answer? And, you know, is it empowering though that actually is the foundations, the basics of our lifestyle? And it's that persistence and that consistent, you know, the daily little things that mount up to make the biggest changes as opposed to. Well, if you do this for 2 hours, everything's gonna be sorted. It's those sort of micro changes throughout the day, you know, and then, you know, if we can do that, you know, once a day.
[00:59:40] Christina Barker: And if we've got number of times where we're checking in with ourselves throughout the day, that cumulative effect of that is really profound, but sometimes it almost feels impossible and that just doesn't feel enough. But it is that long sustained, I'll say long sustained continuation of the little bits as opposed to a massive overhaul of our entire life. Exactly. The shifts. One thing that
[01:00:11] Jo Mueller: I often talk talk people around is that it's it's that we not only have to kind of try and regulate our our nervous systems, but we also have to pour into our positive emotion systems. So it's a sort of it's not one or the other. Like, we yes. We can we can we need to focus on these regulating practices. But we we also need to pour into, you know, are we doing things we enjoy, you know, that that do make us feel alive?
[01:00:45] Jo Mueller: Are we attending to our our identity and, you know, who we are and what, you know, what what we're passionate about and what brings meaning to our life. So it's it's definitely for me that the scale's, there.
[01:01:01] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, bringing those two concepts together, I think there are also we also imagine the transformation in our practices means, almost like the waving of a magic wand about who we are and what our practice is. And I think, you know, coming back to your point, we can we can make these micro changes. You know, we don't have to in order to if I think about one of the very common come one of the common comments.
[01:01:37] Wendy Kendall: One of the things that I say a lot with, my own clients is to to take those small steps every day. It it Christine is nodding because she's probably heard me say it. You know? It it is about the the the cornerstone habits that we have over a long period of time, and I learned that from running. So my old running coach, you know, was gave me the task of starting every race from the back and, spending the whole race just progressing.
[01:02:13] Wendy Kendall: And there was there was a a real kind of learning point for me there, which was about focusing on the steps in front of me and on the almost like, minute to minute improvement on my pace that I could make that helped me learn about pacing in life, not just about making a mad sprint a mad sprint or a mad dash for, you know, for what? For glory? So, yeah, the, you know, I love that empowering message around the daily steps that we can take to build in the foundations, to, fill ourselves up in terms of, the passions and the enjoyment and the things we love doing. And also the really key message, which is to do that according to what you think you need, not what somebody else is telling you that you need. You know, if you need Brazilian jiu jitsu and weightlifting or if you need yoga on the beach in Cornwall or if you need to just walk up and down the mountain every day, that's your decision.
[01:02:13] Wendy Kendall: And there was there was a a real kind of learning point for me there, which was about focusing on the steps in front of me and on the almost like, minute to minute improvement on my pace that I could make that helped me learn about pacing in life, not just about making a mad sprint a mad sprint or a mad dash for, you know, for what? For glory? So, yeah, the, you know, I love that empowering message around the daily steps that we can take to build in the foundations, to, fill ourselves up in terms of, the passions and the enjoyment and the things we love doing. And also the really key message, which is to do that according to what you think you need, not what somebody else is telling you that you need. You know, if you need Brazilian jiu jitsu and weightlifting or if you need yoga on the beach in Cornwall or if you need to just walk up and down the mountain every day, that's your decision.
[01:03:26] Wendy Kendall: That's for that's for you and your kind of nervous system and, you know, where you're at.
[01:03:34] Kat Aguilera: I think that's a really key point. Oh, sorry, Joe. I was just gonna say, I think that's a really key point because we do get these mass messages, don't we, out on social media about you should be doing this, you should be doing this, and, you know, cold plunge every day and all of these different things, and you might not wanna do that. Right? So it really is about knowing yourself and knowing what it is that's going to be restorative for you and then managing that journey.
[01:04:02] Kat Aguilera: But as you say, that's why I always include sleep, nutrition, and exercise because they are micro things that we can do on a daily basis that will take care of our nervous systems and our bodies, and there is always a small step. It's just finding that small step of people to help them improve just even that little bit, that 1% that's gonna help them. So it is really about individualizing all of this as well.
[01:04:28] Wendy Kendall: Love that. Jo?
[01:04:32] Jo Mueller: Yeah. Yeah. I was just agreeing with everything you both said, really, and it made me think of the neurodivergent community and and our work. It's often you know, the messages that they've heard their whole life is that, you know, the ways that they naturally want you know, feel regulated are kind of wrong. And that's, you know, that's been a trauma that lots of adults have gone through who are now, you know, realizing that they're neurodivergent, perhaps realizing that their children are neurodivergent, and they're constantly being told, you know, in their school environments or whatever that they're that they're wrong.
[01:05:09] Jo Mueller: And I think that's a big shift now with the neuro affirmative movement coming through saying, you know what? Like, you tune into what you need, and and that's that's okay. You know? We're we're not all the same, and making space for everybody, I think is, yeah, is important.
[01:05:09] Jo Mueller: And I think that's a big shift now with the neuro affirmative movement coming through saying, you know what? Like, you tune into what you need, and and that's that's okay. You know? We're we're not all the same, and making space for everybody, I think is, yeah, is important.
[01:05:33] Wendy Kendall: That could almost be a tagline, Jo. Making space for everybody. There's a real kind of oh, yeah. Good one. I love that.
[01:05:45] Wendy Kendall: Thanks to both of you for being here. Where can we find you on, social media? Jo, where are we gonna find you?
[01:05:54] Jo Mueller: You can find me at doctor Jo the psychologist on Instagram, Facebook. I'm on LinkedIn. And my new, my new business, the neurodiversity practice as well. That's just starting. So depending when this goes out, it's a kind of a bit of a work in progress, but all the handles are going to be at the neurodiversity practice.
01:06:16 Interview with Dr. Kat Aguilera and Jo Mueller about Resilience Riser's Upcoming Launch
[01:06:16] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. I think I saw you, teasing people about that on LinkedIn recently, so I'm glad to get the inside track on what that's about.
[01:06:25] Jo Mueller: Oh, yes. I mean, it wasn't a tease in a in
[01:06:28] Wendy Kendall: a kind of planned way. It's just literally, I'm just I just can't wait. Bubbling with excitement.
[01:06:37] Wendy Kendall: Love it. Thank you. Kat, where can we find you on social media and and Thintanet?
[01:06:43] Kat Aguilera: So it's doctor Kat Aguilera on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn, and I've also got now the resilience riser's page for anyone that's looking for tips to maintain their resilience, build their resilience after experiencing adversity.
[01:07:00] Wendy Kendall: Wonderful. Thank you for that. Thanks to both of you for being our guests this, in this podcast and, I I just love the, perspectives that you bring from such different places to this to this whole topic about how we can create a place for healing our own nervous systems in our own private practices and how important it is that that's an individualized approach, that is, you know, entirely within our that's with that's, you know, something that we're empowered to do. I think it's a really important and empowering message. So thank you so much for being with us today.
[01:07:40] Kat Aguilera: Thank you so much. It's been a great conversation.
[01:07:43] Jo Mueller: Thanks very much, Wendy. Enjoy your Pleasure.
[01:07:47] Wendy Kendall: So, Christina, these conversations always inspire me and make me make me kind of think differently or feel differently about the topic. But I'm just wondering for you, was there anything in that conversation that kind of shifted your perspective or that kind of stood out for you?
[01:08:13] Christina Barker: I think what's standing out, from the conversations is that whilst we probably, psychologists all work in very different areas, so yourself, so occupational and, Joe being sort of CAMS or parenting focused, a cat being, you know, having that forensic background, but now seeming to be working in, like, the emergency services or with combat veterans and myself being clinical yet, you know, working again, similar, I suppose, with trauma, similarly to Cat. But, yeah, there's there's such a great diversity in the work that we offer and yourself. So with the business of elements of things, but, yeah, we've got the core. You know, is it that just a human core? But, you know, psychologists, we've got this, underpinning, sort of framework of how we care for ourselves, how we build resilience, and really sort of common threads whilst we talked about being an individual approach.
[01:09:17] Christina Barker: You know, as humans, we all need the same thing. Yeah. We're talking about patients, psychologists, or just people. And just remembering that really that at the core, we are very diverse, but yet at the core, very similar, if that makes any sense.
[01:09:35] Wendy Kendall: It does make sense. And in fact, you've made me it that's like another kind of light bulb shift for me because when I think about, you know, we've been recording these conversations about healing through private practice, and if I think of a theme that is just recurring, It is about creating a space or the the healing that is happening has been about rehumanizing ourselves, like getting back in touch with our own humanity. A lot of what we experience, a lot of what we hold space for, even for me as an occupational psychologist, for you as clinical, you know, for Kat as counseling, for so many of the different kinds of psychologists that we've spoken to through this series, we are dealing often with the impact of dehumanizing systems, or we're dealing with the impact of dehumanizing systems on ourselves like toxic workplaces and so on and actually when we talk about healing through our private practices, it's about, becoming human, rehumanizing our working environment for ourselves first as well as then, you know, being able to offer that rehumanization to the people that we work with.
[01:09:35] Wendy Kendall: It does make sense. And in fact, you've made me it that's like another kind of light bulb shift for me because when I think about, you know, we've been recording these conversations about healing through private practice, and if I think of a theme that is just recurring, It is about creating a space or the the healing that is happening has been about rehumanizing ourselves, like getting back in touch with our own humanity. A lot of what we experience, a lot of what we hold space for, even for me as an occupational psychologist, for you as clinical, you know, for Kat as counseling, for so many of the different kinds of psychologists that we've spoken to through this series, we are dealing often with the impact of dehumanizing systems, or we're dealing with the impact of dehumanizing systems on ourselves like toxic workplaces and so on and actually when we talk about healing through our private practices, it's about, becoming human, rehumanizing our working environment for ourselves first as well as then, you know, being able to offer that rehumanization to the people that we work with.
[01:11:11] Christina Barker: Well, then there's something there about just then how, you know, the work does become maybe more meaningful and purposeful and when we see ourselves as part of that. Yes. And being the foundation of the the services that we offer and meeting our own needs. And, you know, if there are challenges with that in the practice, then it, you know, it has that ripple effect back to us. Absolutely.
[01:11:35] Christina Barker: You know? Absolutely. As well.
[01:11:38] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a real key regenerative principle. So we talk in, when we think about regenerative businesses about reciprocity, about mutualism. And one of the things I think we're designing into our practices is fundamentally a kind of reciprocity or a or a reconnection with people, communities, the environment around us, the animals in our in our lives.
[01:12:14] Wendy Kendall: You know, because guess how many of us go into private practice as well because we also want to have more connection with, you know, nonhuman living nonhuman beings. Right? We want to have our pets and our animals and our connection with the living world and so on. Yeah.
[01:12:35] Jo Mueller: Yeah.
[01:12:36] Christina Barker: And all elements just how important that is to be connected to all aspects of life Yeah. Versus computer or the office or hospital or the so bringing that wholeness. And I think, you know, because I often talk about holistic psychology or being holistic in my approach. And I find myself almost thinking about, you know, it's because I integrate mind, body, soul, spirit, you know, all that holistic. But actually, it's not.
[01:13:01] Christina Barker: It's the system that when it's that as well, you know, seeing the whole system, environment, context that we're living in and bringing that in to to the whole. So I suppose that that is maybe where we're all heading and and and how we're all echoing one another within that wider context.
[01:13:24] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. System over. Yeah.
[01:13:28] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Fascinating. Thank you so much for co hosting this, today with me, Christina. It's really been a a pleasure and a joy, and I love the lens that you bring to private practice as well, thinking about that ecosystem, the the what it means to be whole as a human being and what it means to be perhaps a bit more whole as our, you know, as a practitioner as well. Thanks so much.
[01:13:28] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Fascinating. Thank you so much for co hosting this, today with me, Christina. It's really been a a pleasure and a joy, and I love the lens that you bring to private practice as well, thinking about that ecosystem, the the what it means to be whole as a human being and what it means to be perhaps a bit more whole as our, you know, as a practitioner as well. Thanks so much.
[01:13:28] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Fascinating. Thank you so much for co hosting this, today with me, Christina. It's really been a a pleasure and a joy, and I love the lens that you bring to private practice as well, thinking about that ecosystem, the the what it means to be whole as a human being and what it means to be perhaps a bit more whole as our, you know, as a practitioner as well. Thanks so much.
[01:14:01] Wendy Kendall: Where can we find you on social media?
[01:14:05] Christina Barker: I'm currently on LinkedIn, Instagram, and a website under my name, really. So just doctor Christina Barker to keep it nice and simple. And I
[01:14:14] Wendy Kendall: think it's a dotcom as well, isn't it?
[01:14:16] Christina Barker: Is it a dotcom or a dot? On the website, it's doctor Christine www.dot christinabarker.com. The doctor's just the doctor. But, yes, I I do offer sort of these approaches, holistic, and integrative therapies, whether it's retreats here in Cornwall. Yes.
[01:14:36] Christina Barker: Or or some irregular, sort of face to face and online therapies. But, yeah, it's the it's the retreats and it's getting people out in nature and it's, you know, being able to experience this connectivity with the mind, body, breath, and the sort of trauma healing, how vital it is to bring in all those components. Yeah.
[01:14:58] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And I think if one thing our conversation has kind of underpinned today, it's how important it is that different people can access different ways of being supported in their healing because our nervous systems are not all the same, by the way. Perfect. Thanks so much, Christina.
[01:15:18] Christina Barker: Thanks for having me, Wendy.
[01:15:20] Wendy Kendall: Speak to you later. Bye, everyone.
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