[00:00:02] Wendy Kendall: Hello and welcome to the inspiring Psychologists podcast. In this episode, we are talking about healing our connection with community and escaping the grind in private practice. I think that one of the most challenging things that we encounter when we come into private practice is working out for ourselves how we define success and even moving away from this kind of extractive hustle culture that seems to be rooted in making as much money as possible in a short amount of time and the problem with that is we end up burning out and we end up kind of in a place where we're working all the hours and therefore we are disconnected from our community and that impacts our well-being. And so when I think about regenerative Practice, you know, a lot of talk, in the in the regenerative world is about how are we rooted in community and how, are we kind of connected to the place in which we Practice? And I think that's a really interesting question as a psychologist because very often what we're taught as professionals is about being separate from our community, being distant and almost you know that that that is a safer way to practice when we're not connected with the community in which we're working.
[00:01:50] Wendy Kendall: And so I find this a really, challenging place to navigate, which is, you know, thinking about how do we find, a way to flourish in harmony and in connection with our community and even to be, a part of the resourcing of our community as well. Also, I know that, you know, if we're thinking about all the things that cause us to feel as though we're languishing or as though, you know, some of the traumatic experiences we may have had as people before we before we go into private practice or even you know whilst we're in private Practice. One of the I mean one of the things that I remember reading was you know, the the impact of trauma is about us, developing patterns of protection as opposed to patterns of connection. And so, you know the the healing process is about healing that connection with ourselves and then moving on to thinking about how do we heal our connection with Community. And so for me, again, it kind of comes back to what are the ways in which we can build more community connection in a way in our practices that allows us to thrive and allows and resources the community around us to thrive as well.
[00:03:18] Wendy Kendall: And so today I'm going to be joined by, Doctor Gemma Parker and Doctor Amy Woolstone, and I'm just inviting you into the, into the podcast here, who are psychologists that have, developed practices that are very rooted in community. So welcome, Gemma, and welcome, Amy. Can I ask both of you to do a little bit of introduction to yourselves and to your kind of backstory on your, practices, please? Gemma, I'm going to come to you first if that's alright.
[00:04:00] Dr Gemma Parker: That's fine. Thank you, Wendy. Thanks for thanks for having me. A bit of backstory. Yes.
[00:04:05] Dr Gemma Parker: So I'm a clinical Psychologists, and I trained, some years ago and went into the NHS. Actually, I was in the NHS before that, did my training, stayed in the NHS, in secure hospitals in psychiatric care with people. I'm thinking as I'm talking, how does this backstory lead to working with communities? I think partly that was my struggle. So part of my struggle working within those systems was that I felt quite disconnected from the community that was supposed to be the community that we were serving.
[00:04:44] Dr Gemma Parker: Disconnected because of certain policies, the way things were commissioned, the, the way that, we were and weren't allowed to be agents within that system. And because of some really quite difficult, culture issues within that organization. And I made the really difficult decision about 6 years ago, probably to come out of the NHS. At least out of the NHS that I was working at the time. And I needed something different.
[00:05:17] Dr Gemma Parker: I needed something different for me. I was, I was pretty, burnt out to use a phrase, that might be familiar to people. The only way that I could do that in line with my values as a practitioner In line with somebody like I, I was still in love with the NHS. I believe in it. But couldn't remain in it the way it was functioning for me.
[00:05:41] Dr Gemma Parker: The only way that I could come out was to set up a, what is it now? A community interest company. So it's a type of social enterprise. So that I was able to think quite broadly about how I work as a practitioner in what could be called private practice. And some people might call it the voluntary sector.
[00:06:02] Dr Gemma Parker: But, the CIC allows us to, apply for funding to do certain things for free for people to access or at least low cost for people to access to have more of a sense of community as a result of that. As well as having what some people might see as a more traditional Private practice route as well. But that was a bit of the backstory and why I felt that I had to come out then and why I chose to work in the way that I am trying to do. It's still a process. Don't feel like it's.
[00:06:37] Wendy Kendall: So tell us a little bit about altogether human though. Because that's my understanding of the name of your organisation.
[00:06:45] Dr Gemma Parker: That's right. Yeah. So Altogether Human is a is a community interest company. I co direct that with another psychologist, a counselling psychologist, Yasmina. And we set that up a little while ago along with a couple of colleagues who, no longer work within, the CIC.
[00:07:01] Dr Gemma Parker: And it's the CIC that is, predominantly for people who want to improve their relationships, where there might be, experiences of conflict within relationships or, traumatic experiences, and that they want to heal from those. And those might be family relationships, romantic relationships, or it's sometimes actually other relationships too, friendships. And we have ways of working with people individually as couples, as families, but also we have a community, Community it an arm is too much, but a way of providing some space for more community based activities as well.
[00:07:46] Wendy Kendall: Okay. Fabulous. Thank you. Amy, welcome. Doctor Amy Willston, if I'm correct, informal term.
[00:07:54] Wendy Kendall: Yes. So tell me a little bit about, you, your work, your backstory, please.
[00:07:59] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. Okay. If there's similar elements to Gemma's, I think I qualified in 2007 and also worked in the NHS for a long time. I worked in CAMS and I worked in, perinatal services as well, And also have my own family, you know, towards the end or middle end of my, NHS career. And, there was some sort of elements of the system that I struggled with, that we were spread so very thin.
[00:08:32] Dr Amy Woolston: There was no sense of community. It was a very individual approach to treating perinatal mental health difficulties. And I think that goes against a lot of what I believe women, pet, dads need at that time. And it also, personally, was a really difficult experience for me go being there after my second child and becoming pregnant with my 3rd. It just was definitely the not the right job at that particular time.
[00:09:00] Dr Amy Woolston: And so I left, and had talked about this kind of, like, fantasy idea with a couple of colleagues on and off, on and off. So I had a really loose idea of what it might be like. And that was enough to get it started and, again, doing the research similar to Gemma, it needed to be a CIC, a social enterprise. And I set that up with my colleague, Adele, and I definitely couldn't have done it without her. I'm not a natural leader.
[00:09:33] Dr Amy Woolston: And just having her there, you know, to be in partnership with me to keep kind of keep steady, keep steering and, reminding us where we were heading was, was what I needed, definitely. So the the koala tree is, we we just sort of say it's a serve it's a psychological service for, expectant and new parents who have struggled with the transition to parenthood. So, we do traditional individual therapy, and that's, as Gemma was saying, that's kind of like our traded income. That's where we make the majority of our earnings and cover the business costs. But as a CIC, we're also in a position to apply for funding.
[00:10:19] Dr Amy Woolston: And the other so the other branch of our service is community groups. We we've I've come from a group this morning. It's it's a facilitated support group. So we just come along, we do a check-in and decide what we wanna use the time for, and I just facilitate the conversation. But the the power comes from the group, really.
[00:10:40] Dr Amy Woolston: We run a dad's group, on a Tuesday evening. And I can get into this a bit more, but we've got a a stay and play as well running, and that's led by our peer support worker.
[00:10:53] Wendy Kendall: Right. Okay. Interesting. Because that, you can imagine I'm an occupational Psychologists, so that immediately starts getting me thinking about, oh, yeah, of course, in these community interest companies and these very community focused companies, this this isn't just about us being psychologists going and doing psychology to Community, right? This is about different models of leadership and different models of connecting kind of, you know, one of the things that stood out to me there, Amy, when you kind of you know, one of the things that stood out to me there, Amy, when you mentioned I'm not a natural leader, and you said it in conjunction with well, I worked with Adele to kind of set up this, this company.
[00:11:46] Wendy Kendall: And it, you know, thinking about how a community, a connected community based company would have a different model and a different way of operating. That just says to me, maybe, raises the question for me, maybe leadership of these companies looks different from what we might guess is traditional leadership. And I think both of you have set these up collectively if I'm how so this is bit of an this is a bit of an exam question. When you think about the leadership that you saw previously in your career versus how you lead these companies now, what would what do you notice about that? What do you see as differences or similarities?
[00:12:37] Dr Amy Woolston: Shall I go Gemma? I think, I think a lot of the time I just felt like I didn't get it. I didn't get what the bigger plan was, the bigger picture. So I knew what I was told to do, but I didn't have a sense of like the money behind it, the budgets behind it, the, the connection to other wider picture. And I think that's me, you know, I think that, like, I own a lot of that myself.
[00:13:06] Dr Amy Woolston: And so moving into the CIC, I think what we've we've done so the first thing we started was this this facilitated support group, and that's been going for, 5 years, I think now. But what we've done from that is, like, we've got some ideas. We, you know, we know we have an idea of what we think might happen and what might be useful. But we've just tried to have, like, lots and lots of feedback. And that you need that anyway as a CIC.
[00:13:37] Dr Amy Woolston: You need your impact data, to help with your your funding bids and so on. But we've we've run focus groups to say, like, what are we doing well? What else should we be doing? And I think, like, at this point now, I can look back and see how much those conversations have steered what we've done. So the dad's group completely came from from that feedback.
[00:14:04] Dr Amy Woolston: The peer support worker completely came from that feedback and her stay and play group. Yeah. Those are the things that sort of come to my mind immediately. But that I think when you set up a CIC, you like, ideally, you need probably 3 directors is better, isn't it, Gemma, like, for funding bids? But I think you've got 2.
[00:14:26] Dr Amy Woolston: We've got 2. But where what we need to get to is to do is is to develop a much more clear steering group. So and that would include the people who come to our groups, our peer support worker, the people that we work very closely with. So we work closely with our local Home Start. And and that shapes what they do and, and, and what we do.
[00:14:53] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So it's just much more collaborative and much more co created, together with the community that you're working with, that you're serving. Yeah.
[00:15:03] Dr Gemma Parker: Absolutely. The
[00:15:04] Dr Amy Woolston: flip side to that is sometimes it can feel unclear. Okay. I'm not sure what's happening next. So there's a funding bid come out. What should we use that for?
[00:15:15] Dr Amy Woolston: I'm not sure yet. And and I think sometimes I'll think that's my leadership. That was an issue with my leadership.
[00:15:23] Dr Amy Woolston: But I think it is actually it's it is organic. And you've just got to see what emerges almost.
[00:15:32] Wendy Kendall: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate to that. I'll come back to that point in a minute.
[00:15:37] Wendy Kendall: Gemma, your perceptions on how kind of leadership has shifted and how it's different in, altogether human versus when perhaps you were working in NHS?
[00:15:50] Dr Gemma Parker: Yeah. So I, I can, I can relate to a lot of what Amy's just said? I think, my experiences of leadership within the NHS are of experiencing other people's leadership, and also having to a certain extent been in a leadership role. But a leadership role in the NHS never felt like it was my baby. Right?
[00:16:10] Dr Gemma Parker: Like, it never felt like somebody sort of handed me my baby and said, you can genuinely lead on this thing because there were these frameworks, and the the hierarchy above. And you still were being told you you can't do it in that way. So you might receive feedback from people who are the Community, who they'd say, I need this, or we need this, or even other services who might say, can we commission this? And despite being in a role that was supposed to have an aspect of leadership to it, you'd still feel stymied by you'd have to go to the higher ups and ask for permission. And, that wouldn't often wouldn't come.
[00:16:48] Dr Gemma Parker: You can't do it in that way. And I understand, you know, those frameworks. But I became very frustrated by them, because it really felt like we weren't able to do, the best for the community. And so swapping out, I think is a similar experience to something that Amy said. Like it can feel, a bit vague at times.
[00:17:16] Dr Gemma Parker: And sometimes that does mean that imposter syndrome raises its head or that you feel like, what am I really doing here? But having that ability to respond, sometimes it's slow because of the funding bids are slow, and you don't necessarily get feedback on those, but there are ways that you can respond to the needs that arise in the community and developing networks in the community with other services or other practitioners, or sometimes even back into the NHS. The NHS has recently asked us, can you provide something to us that is very much needed? That I think is a very different, helpful, regenerative experience of leadership in this in this kind of way.
[00:18:04] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And I guess the the question that kind of came up for me as you were both of you were describing those experiences is how much of a different experience it must be for the community that you're working with. You know, when you when you're saying, you know, maybe we would do consultation when we were in this big kind of top down hierarchy organization previously. But the experience of having consultation done to you is very different than the experience of being part of a community interest group that is working together with you. What have you observed or what kind of feedback have you had from people around that?
[00:18:46] Wendy Kendall: I'm gonna come to you again, Amy, if that's alright.
[00:18:51] Dr Amy Woolston: So just summarize the question again, Wendy. The feedback about from the people
[00:18:55] Wendy Kendall: who Yeah. Just yeah. Exactly. Like, what have you observed in, or had feedback on from people in terms of how engaging with your organization kind of feels different or how it impacts their life in a different way or changes their perception of what psychology is about or, you know, what what the role is as a as a, yeah, clinical psychologist or providing these kinds of services. I'm
[00:19:26] Dr Amy Woolston: just trying to think. I think it's I think it's been refreshing. I don't know whether I've had, like, direct feedback about that kind of thing. But I think, like, the it feels like a different relationship with with us. It feels like a more equitable relationship, I think.
[00:19:44] Dr Amy Woolston: So, like, you know, I'm just thinking about, like, tidying up after the group. Like, we all do it together. And that feels okay. It does it feels like joined. Like, people help me with little with, like, I've got an a board today, and I couldn't put the the poster in.
[00:20:03] Dr Amy Woolston: And when she was like, shall I just do it, Amy? You know? So that it feels, it feels like a different relationship, I think. And people do feel like they, they can tell me what they want or what I've done, what we've done well. Or, you know, we were looking at premises, moving premises.
[00:20:21] Dr Amy Woolston: So I just asked if they could put it on the WhatsApp group and just say, Amy's thinking of this, what, what's the feedback? And it just came, it just came through, you know. So it, I suppose, like, it feels more that it's theirs perhaps that that they've got a stake in it. And that they are motivated to to drive it. And I think that comes across as well with how people use the groups.
[00:20:51] Dr Amy Woolston: They're not looking to me to say, where do we go next? Like, I might start it off. Yeah. But that they know that what they have got to offer and to share is, is valuable, is really valuable. I know whether that's entirely answering your question, but those are the thoughts that come to mind.
[00:21:10] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I didn't have like, a correct answer in mind. I was just really curious about, about how that shifts the relationships and how that must be quite a different experience compared to, like I say, being in these kind of hierarchical, very, top down driven kind of yeah.
[00:21:33] Dr Amy Woolston: I suppose it is. And sorry, Gemma. The just the one thing that it it changes the bound it changes the nature of the boundaries or, like, the boundaries are slightly different. And, you I suppose it's like just being alert to that, being aware of that and how how I am responding differently, but thoughtfully as
[00:21:56] Wendy Kendall: well. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
[00:22:01] Dr Amy Woolston: Oh. Sorry. That was me.
[00:22:06] Wendy Kendall: Don't worry. No worries. So, Gemma, for you, you mentioned, you know, that you've done these consultations in the past and now it presumably also feels different, in terms of the relationship with the people that you work with.
[00:22:24] Dr Gemma Parker: Yeah. Yeah. So I was yeah. I was just reflecting on things as as Amy was speaking on that kind of topic as well. And I my mind was taken to working with a a Ukrainian psychologist who I hope doesn't mind me mentioning her here.
[00:22:37] Dr Gemma Parker: But she, found me on social media and saw something that I'd put out about being a psychologist in the local area and got in touch. And I was thinking about that relationship. So it's not just the relationship with people who might use and help to co produce the service, but also people who are in other helping roles, who might also want some kind of connection. And she got in touch and between us, we managed to get some funding for her to do some work with Ukrainian refugees, being a Ukrainian refugee herself here in the local area, and gathering groups of children and teenagers. And the feedback from them, was, was beautiful also about being able to use our physical space, being able to meet and talk to each other in their own language, being able to develop their own sort of network.
[00:23:27] Dr Gemma Parker: And, and I really wasn't, I wasn't part of that in that I wasn't at every group. I met them occasionally and waived they knew who I was. But to be able to provide a space, physically, financially, and to a certain extent emotionally for that to happen. I think that that's one example of how those relationships can be really, really different.
[00:23:52] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And that again, it makes me I'm going to write down a note here about getting into a discussion around the changing boundaries because that seems like something that's really fundamental. Like, it's a shift in how we view and negotiate boundaries as compared to what perhaps we've been taught as psychologists. I mean, you know, even as an occupational psychologist, we're we're taught about being careful, and we're always careful and mindful about the boundaries that we kind of have with people we're working with.
[00:24:28] Wendy Kendall: But for you as kind of clinical Psychologists, what really shifted in that would you say? Where would you see the biggest differences?
[00:24:39] Dr Amy Woolston: One thing that comes to my mind is, like, the place. Like, I I I don't know whether anybody actually told me, but there was very much, like, a rule about don't work on your own patch. So
[00:24:53] Wendy Kendall: I've heard that as well. Yeah. So many times. Yeah.
[00:24:56] Dr Amy Woolston: They don't work where you live because you might bump into somebody. Yeah. No. And, and I think with the CIC, a social enterprise, you like it's community based. Why I wouldn't want to start this in any other community, but my own, I don't have the investment.
[00:25:13] Dr Amy Woolston: So, you know, my children are growing older now, but when they were they were younger, there was that overlap between the children of the families I was seeing and my own children. So there was always a risk of, like, bumping into people in your swimming costume at the swimming pool. Like, that kind of thing. And, it it is to be mindful of, but it's also it it's what I've chosen is what I want to do. And I think I have to bring some of that, some of myself in that way as a parent, as a human parent, to the work that I'm doing.
[00:25:48] Dr Amy Woolston: And and that is some of the feedback that I have received, that it's been helpful when I've shared my own stuff. You know, that kind of use of self disclosure. Yeah. But it's it's something I've like, I think for me as a psychologist, I've I've probably had looser boundaries than than some people have. And it's something I've always got to be mindful of.
[00:26:09] Dr Amy Woolston: What, how is this, how is this helping? Or how is it not? And especially we've got people coming to therapy that come to groups and whose partners come to my groups. And I might be seeing somebody who's working with the husband of somebody. You know, it's a lot of that.
[00:26:27] Dr Amy Woolston: And that is community, isn't it? Those threads and networks.
[00:26:31] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:32] Dr Gemma Parker: Yeah. I think similarly, it takes a lot of thinking about, and I think as important discussions with people when they first, encounter you or, or vice versa about just how, how because they have to be comfortable with it too. Right. And I know it wasn't the swimming pool, thankfully. But it was a roller disco.
[00:26:52] Dr Gemma Parker: And so a conversation with somebody afterwards, but I saw you on skates. That was brave. And I was like, oh, I didn't know it was brave. But just to have some of that discussion. Yeah, it's a different boundary.
[00:27:02] Dr Gemma Parker: And probably I feel less like a clinical psychologist in some of those positions and more like if I could choose a different label, probably I'd think community Psychologists and I think maybe the boundaries within those roles are a bit different. And yeah, it just it takes a fair bit of thinking about, and still there are some boundaries that I would maintain. So for example, I run a group on a on an evening that I I put out as a community event. And I I don't think I would feel like it was appropriate for somebody who was doing a piece of therapeutic work with me to be in that group because of the person I am that I bring to that group. I feel like it's a different, it's a different part of me.
[00:27:46] Dr Gemma Parker: So it is a different boundary. And so it's just thinking about some of those and negotiating some of those. But I think it's, I think it's beneficial. I like to be able to, bring different parts of me to different parts of the work.
[00:28:01] Wendy Kendall: Yes. And it I mean, you know, the time that we're recording this, you won't have had any opportunity to kind of hear any of the other episodes. But this whole topic of, the healing experience of private Practice, how, you know, bringing different part about how it can be a space where different parts of us actually can find a home and find, a safe place, is part of that healing experience of finding and being with and connecting with all those different parts of ourselves as well. Mhmm. Something that occurred to me as you were both describing that shift in boundaries was the difference between doing psychology, doing clinical psychology work, doing therapy, and being a psychologist.
[00:29:00] Wendy Kendall: And I'm just, I guess, I don't even know if I have a a clear question at this point, so bear with me as I kind of think through it. I was wondering at a point whether being more than a psychologist in the Community, because because as you described there, Gemma, you know, at that point, you were a woman on roller skates in the disco. You know, Amy, you were a woman there in your cozy in the swimming baths. You know, we were we're not inhabiting our clinical or psychologist, and identity perhaps when we're in those places, even though other people might still see, oh, there's my, you know, therapist in her posse or whatever, or on roller skates. And I just wondered if it shifted or how that sense of, identifying with all of our Psychologists parts or, you know, or is it about, as you said, Gemma, just actually different parts of us now playing a role in doing psychology or being a psychologist.
[00:30:11] Wendy Kendall: I don't know if anything coherent comes out of that, but just wondered about your reflections on the being, the doing, etcetera. Yeah.
[00:30:20] Dr Amy Woolston: I I think it's like it's identity. Isn't it? And I suppose, like, that's quite a lot of what I talk about in my work. Like, transitions in identity. Right.
[00:30:32] Dr Amy Woolston: Become a mom or a dad and you if you're on, you know, your world shapes up differently, doesn't it? And it it does it it and I think like, I think clinical psychology cuts through a lot of my parts, you know, like my kids know what I do.
[00:30:52] Wendy Kendall: Right.
[00:30:53] Dr Amy Woolston: What they've got an awareness of it. Let my friends know it it and I'm okay with that. So it, so actually I suppose it perhaps brings a little more cohesion or makes me think about being, like, authentic throughout, you know, And even that down to like, I wear the same clothes to work as I wear on the weekends, sort of thing. Kind of, like, I suppose yeah. That that that that piece just runs through me, and it's not I don't have to, like, take it off and put it on again based on where I am because the way I am in the group would be familiar if you did see me in Tesco's.
[00:31:42] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. So in that sense, it feels a bit more integrated as well.
[00:31:47] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. Yeah. I think so.
[00:31:50] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Different parts of us integrated in different parts of our lives as opposed to kind of siloed.
[00:31:56] Wendy Kendall: You know? Oh, when I when I go here wearing these clothes, I'm doing psychology, and when I'm over here, I'm, you know, doing the swimming lessons with the kids or whatever.
[00:32:06] Dr Gemma Parker: Yeah. For
[00:32:08] Wendy Kendall: you, Gemma, has that also been a shift or yeah. What's been your experience?
[00:32:15] Dr Gemma Parker: It's definitely been a shift. Maybe from moving from secure services where, I mean, issues about personal disclosure or, to what extent you bring yourself into that, would be very different. So, yeah, it's been a big and slow process in terms of shifting. I was thinking about that idea of those parts still being integrated or being siloed. And I don't know whether there's some in between for me that it's not necessarily one of the other.
[00:32:47] Dr Gemma Parker: It's not necessarily that I am, I bring all of me to all of those scenarios.
[00:32:52] Wendy Kendall: Right.
[00:32:53] Dr Gemma Parker: But that there are core principles or values, that are integrated. But the extent to which I share something personal about me or, certain parts of myself might flex depending on the, depending on the situation. Like it wouldn't feel appropriate if I was in, you know, working therapeutically with somebody, for me to talk about the same things as if I'm sitting, stitching, doing slow stitching with a group of people who aren't in a therapeutic setting. Do you see what I mean? So it's like that would still feel different, but I wouldn't necessarily feel different in terms of my identity within that.
[00:33:41] Dr Gemma Parker: That makes sense? Yeah.
[00:33:47] Wendy Kendall: Where do you think these values and aspirations of being more connected with Community? Where do you think they came from? So it's the backstory of the backstory. Gemma, I know you're a fellow Northerner. I don't know if that had any, am I am I I mean, there was a little bit of a so the so maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm making assumptions there.
[00:34:16] Dr Gemma Parker: It's interesting. My response, I think also was interesting. So yeah, I, I am in Manchester, whether I consider myself to be a Northerner, not where I began. So, yeah, I'm from Midland originally. Anyway, so
[00:34:33] Wendy Kendall: Oh, it's north of London. You'd be classed as a Northerner if you're in
[00:34:36] Dr Gemma Parker: I would.
[00:34:37] Wendy Kendall: By the the guys in the southeast. Yeah.
[00:34:41] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. So just thinking about that background then in those shifts and, you know, what what's the backstory that led for you to led you to kind of make that make that physical and metaphorical journey? Dema?
[00:35:00] Dr Gemma Parker: I can. I can. Yeah. I was thinking about this, and I'm not sure that I have a terribly good response to that. But some of the things that came to mind as I was thinking about it were some of my experiences of systems, as a service user slash customer slash patient, and how they felt at odds with what I felt I needed at the time.
[00:35:32] Dr Gemma Parker: So I had I had quite a a tricky time, sort of late adolescence, early twenties, and found myself, requiring services to a certain extent. But psychiatric services were not at all what I needed. And I think just being on the receiving end of some of those practices or experiencing how I was seen or treated by the system,
[00:36:00] Wendy Kendall: probably
[00:36:03] Dr Gemma Parker: I don't think created the need for community connection, but certainly strengthened it, let's put it that way, or catalysed it. Yeah. And so looking back at some of that, I think I can see I can see the role of those things. Actually, what I needed was a cuddle, you know, like that sense of connection and Community. And I was away from family and that was tricky.
[00:36:30] Dr Gemma Parker: And I think that that has helped, you know, looking back on that has helped me to think, do you know what, that's just, it's not, it's not what I needed. Yeah. And so then I think I can apply that now to myself, but also to to other people.
[00:36:47] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And Amy, for you was is there do you kind of see a connection with experiences that you'd had earlier or growing up through life about and why that shifted you in the direction of a more community orientation?
[00:37:04] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. I think probably like my mum's a special needs teacher, you know, and induced like the families that struggled, she bring those kids home and they stay the night at all. So, you know, so she's always had like a very much a helping attitude and, like, looking after people, you know, so and I think that was handed down to me. So so I I think that's part of the backstory and then, like, the transition to parenthood as well. Like, mine was reasonably straightforward, but it would not have been if I didn't have a community or if I if I didn't have, like, 2 sets of grandparents to help out.
[00:37:50] Dr Amy Woolston: Assist a wise sister who'd done it before and friends that were there to to sort of look after me. So and I think sort of professionally where I started from, you know, I can track that back to, like, I worked in a school for boys with emotional and behavioral disorders. So that's why I went into CAMS, and then I worked in CAMS. I realized, like, no. It's early relationships.
[00:38:15] Dr Amy Woolston: So I went into perinatal. And then it was like, the NHS model is not that, not working that great. So let's do something different. So I think there's, there's those elements of it too, that took it to perinatal. And just thinking about like the, how, like, I suppose I recognize very much my Private, and I don't take that for granted.
[00:38:40] Dr Amy Woolston: And, like, what my responsibility then is if I if I have privilege that other people don't have, Just knowing that, like, that I don't know how people do it when they don't have family around them really, you know, when kids are very young. It's so hard. And Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:03] Wendy Kendall: And I think, when I read on your website, it it has that classic quote of it takes a village.
[00:39:09] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah.
[00:39:11] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And there are obviously so many aspects of life and living, certainly in the UK at the moment. So, you know, not necessarily speaking for other places, but, you know, so many aspects about how we live, that have kind of broken down community, broken down connection, you know, just even just having to work super long hours in order to make ends meet just means that you don't get out like you used to. You know, when I think about even, dare I say it, as a teenager growing up, being able to go to the local pub to meet your friends, They've been a little bit underage at the time, but there was a place for us to go, you know. And, I mean, I started I started we were allowed to go glass collecting at 16 in a pub when I was a youngster.
[00:40:08] Wendy Kendall: But and just, you know, having jobs, being part of the community and all of those things. And a lot of that has really shifted and changed over the last 20, 25 years or whatever. And it makes me really think about then as psychologists, obviously we're kind of subject to some of those changes as well. You know, just like we're in other people around us are impacted puts on us after we, you know, leave uni and so on, puts on us after we, you know, leave uni and so on. And then when I think about now the pressures that are on us as psychologists to kind of be able to pay the rent, be able to pay mortgage, if we can get even get, you know, a mortgage and so on.
[00:41:03] Wendy Kendall: I'm just wondering whether, you know, redefining success in terms and and not just being beholden to, you know, the grind culture, the hustle culture. Is that something that's more of a challenge for psychologists and therapists, or are there aspects of what we do that kind of make it easier to say, let's do, you know, something that's more socially and community orientated? I just wondered, yeah, about your reflections on any of that, really. Yeah. You know, how hard was it for you to think about redefining success on your own terms when you contemplated setting up a community interest company?
[00:42:05] Dr Gemma Parker: I think, well, actually we've both mentioned, I think that coming out of the NHS, I mean, it's, it's a risk, right? Coming out of something that's employment and giving up what actually is quite a good pension and those kinds of things. That's a risk. We've both mentioned that the only way that we could find to do that, that felt right with us was to do that in a community oriented way. And it's not, I don't think I haven't found it easy necessarily.
[00:42:34] Dr Gemma Parker: But I do think it is, it provides a balance and how you choose to balance that is is kind of up to you. But it does provide a balance between doing things that may feel more like needing to put the hours in to get the income out. Like, you know, our sort of trading arm, our trading income with other things that actually don't, don't bring as much revenue. The grants, they don't pay in the same way. And then there's this sort of ongoing struggle in terms of the proportion of time that you put into 1 and the other, and then all of the unpaid tasks that come with running a company or having a premise or doing these other things.
[00:43:15] Dr Gemma Parker: So, yeah, I think, yeah, that there's a struggle around that, but an importance in that struggle for me. And I think in what Amy said as well, in terms of really wanting to do that in a way that is in line with our values, because that that's another kind of wealth. Yeah.
[00:43:36] Dr Amy Woolston: I suppose that's what was coming to my mind when like, I don't know whether I ever thought about it in terms of success because success is usually, like, often like a financially marked, isn't it? You know? Like, I'm just looking to do this. And, again, there's something about, like, certainly for me about privilege and being able to take that risk, to reduce some earning whilst I set this up. You know?
[00:44:05] Dr Amy Woolston: So but I think, like, Gemma was saying about it meeting your values, living to your values that provides I don't know if it's excess or or like a sense of, doing the right thing, contentment. You know, that it I'm doing the right thing in that I have created flexibility for myself so that I can take my children to school and pick them up most days. And that's that feels successful, I suppose, in that sense. And, yeah. Stop there on that.
[00:44:41] Wendy Kendall: In in fact, you've you've reminded me that of a few things that are kind of been rattling around in my brain about this topic of success because one of the things that kind of really I don't know why, but I feel, like, really averse to, messages around 10 times your income. There's just and I don't want to kind of be shaming her, but I'm just saying, personally, I kind of get the get the kind of, you know, the hairs on the back of my neck standing up with with, you know, a lot of the kind of, things of almost like pressure that's put on any business owner, small business owner, but also as psychologists, we pick it up around. Have you got a 6 figure practice? How are you doing multiple 6 figures? Have you got a 7 figure this or that?
[00:45:39] Wendy Kendall: And, and when I think about models of success, you know, I love the thing about well, maybe maybe the wealth is not just in money. Maybe the wealth is in social connection or the quality of the relationships that I have and, you know, fully kind of bearing in mind your point, Amy, about we can at least provide for ourselves a decent standard of living whilst we then aspire to these other forms of wealth. For me, there was this question of, can we broaden our perspective on what it means to be prosperous? Because to me, some of these other things we're talking about, you know, and and they do actually relate to how, like you said, this kind of sense of wealth because if you have good social connections and good, and and well resourced communities, your ability to kind of function in the world just improves dramatically as well. You know, if it's not all about having to find money to purchase a service every time you need to do something as a as a, you know, as a member of a community.
[00:46:59] Wendy Kendall: And and I think the, you know, the c word that you used, of contentment. Gemma was getting worried then. That's like Where's she going with this? I I don't know if you know, but I did my IFS training. I don't know if any of you have done IFS training.
[00:47:19] Wendy Kendall: So, I, so you know the 8 c's of self.
[00:47:23] Dr Gemma Parker: Yep.
[00:47:24] Wendy Kendall: I reckon there is a 9th c of self, and to me, the 9th c of self connects it to regenerative communities and regenerative ways of being, and that 9th C is contentment. So when I feel like we're kind of in connection with communities around us, when we are in connection with ourselves, when we're feeling that calmness, that confidence, compassion, clarity, all those good things, actually what also comes through is contentment means that there isn't this constant striving to feel as, you know, from a, almost like, a scarcity mindset that, you know, the, the world can kind of leave us feeling like everything is scarce.
[00:48:09] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. And it it's just like you're, you know, you're just battling against the whole structure of our society, aren't you? To keep reminding yourself that more isn't you need those baselines of of of of stability, you know, and and and to have safeness in that and the way you live and how you access the things
[00:48:34] Dr Gemma Parker: you need.
[00:48:35] Dr Amy Woolston: But that constant, like, battle against capitalism and having more and more more more to be to feel better. It's it's it's a hard battle to have every day, you know, and to remind yourself of the other things that bring you a sense of of wealth and contentment. Yeah. It's a it's a wide struggle, isn't it?
[00:49:03] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just thinking about, breakthroughs that you've experienced around having a practice that feels strongly rooted in place and Community.
[00:49:19] Wendy Kendall: What were some things that maybe felt quite pivotal or felt like a big shift in your experience around that? I know, Gemma, you're kind of nodding there.
[00:49:31] Dr Gemma Parker: The the thought rather than answers. But,
[00:49:34] Wendy Kendall: okay. Yeah.
[00:49:35] Dr Gemma Parker: I mean, I I can try. So breakthroughs. I think I was nodding in recognition. Yeah. That and I thought really that it, for me, it hasn't necessarily felt like lot big breakthroughs, but more connections or almost like I don't know.
[00:49:54] Dr Gemma Parker: I'm thinking of the Swiss cheese model now, which is what what was that about? Risk assessment or something? I don't mean in terms of risk assessment, but when when things become aligned. Yes. So less massive breakthroughs, but almost a sense of synchronicity sometimes.
[00:50:09] Dr Gemma Parker: There's something coming back that you think, gosh, that was maybe a year ago that I last spoke to that person and now they want to come back and make some kind of connection with a different opportunity. So I think some of the breakthroughs for us have been about that, about the network and about the connections made between people, whether that's between us and other services or, people who might commission a kind of service from us, like a business to business model, or whether that is, other kinds of other kinds of connections. But I think that I would say that some of those have been our breakthroughs. An example, somebody from the NHS Neighbourhood Development team coming back to us after some relationship building, but, you know, just bits and pieces of things coming back and saying, do you know what what we really need at the moment? And you might be able to do this for us.
[00:51:04] Dr Gemma Parker: Is, something to do with children who aren't making it school because they're anxious. Is there something that you might be able to do around that? And it's almost like these things, there's a sense of them almost falling in your lap, but when you look at it, you think, actually there's been a pathway to this.
[00:51:21] Dr Gemma Parker: there are things that we've done in terms of building those relationships that have allowed those people to see us as somebody that might be able to do that.
[00:51:31] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That just reminds me of when you when you're working in a way that's building a living system, the living system starts to take on a life of its own.
[00:51:45] Dr Gemma Parker: Yeah.
[00:51:46] Wendy Kendall: And yeah. And and kind of produce those kind of connections and and that sense of momentum and kind of life repeating itself almost.
[00:51:57] Dr Gemma Parker: Yeah. It's like the mycelium under the forest. That's it.
[00:52:03] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Amy, I don't know if there's any for you.
[00:52:07] Dr Amy Woolston: I think, like, picking up on something that Gemma said, like, it's hard to see a breakthrough in the moment sometimes, isn't it? It's when you look back and see where it's come from. And so, like, when I look back and think we started this group 5 years ago, and it is still going now, and it's going strong. Like, that to me is is a breakthrough because then I realize, like, what we've done. Other breakthroughs, I think, probably, like, a bit more tangible concrete, like, signing a contract with another service, like, as Devon was saying, service to service work, a 5 year contract.
[00:52:48] Dr Amy Woolston: And that was quite early. Like, early on, again, we've been nurturing that for a while, but it eventually came through. And just that, like, you know, like 5 years, you know? Yeah. Now it's coming to the end, and now the the figures look much smaller than they did originally.
[00:53:14] Dr Amy Woolston: We've got somebody who's used our service and is now at a point where she wants to volunteer to support other women and parents through our service, you know. And she's like she's like gold dust. You know, you couldn't have she's ideal. And that that's a breakthrough, I think. You know?
[00:53:36] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. Make that happen.
[00:53:38] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Exactly. And what that reminds me of with, when we have models that are based on this kind of extractive machine way of working, we're we're always having to put inputs in. You know, there's always fixed costs, and there's always kind of, you know, a proportion of what we're doing is is kind of, is just getting siphoned off by the system. And when we work in a more living systems and regenerative orientation, as I said, you know, the the system itself starts to replenish itself.
[00:54:16] Wendy Kendall: It starts become it starts to sustain its own life, and therefore some of your costs can end up either not escalating as as you grow or kind of, you know, staying the same. And so running, I mean, that's just me as an occupational psychologist getting my occupational hats on there and thinking about those different those different ways of being for organizations. When you know, what what have you learned from this experience that could help psychologists and therapists who have a social mission or want to create a change, but also want to make a living from their, from their profession of Psychologists. What what would be your kind of guidance or words of inspiration?
[00:55:07] Dr Amy Woolston: Well, I think the CIC model is a really good one because unlike a charity, you can generate Private. You know, you can generate income as normal, but you are in a position to apply for funds that will serve your your social enterprise. So I just I think it, you know, there's there's pros and cons to it to to whichever way you sit. But it's a it's a pretty good start off, a pretty good jumping off point for protecting your income, if you like, and giving you scope to do more socially driven work.
[00:55:45] Wendy Kendall: Right. Yeah.
[00:55:46] Dr Amy Woolston: I I guess I I wouldn't be put off by I I wouldn't be put off by it because it it's not beyond anyone's scope really to set that up. It's it's a bit arduous. It takes a bit of time, but a bit like, if I can do it, I think, but you can do it. I wonder
[00:56:06] Dr Gemma Parker: whether that's where you were going. But the sense of that yeah. I think I've had to I've had to become more comfortable with failure, probably, make better friends with failure than I was before, and also get comfortable with slowness. Mhmm. And that it isn't it isn't about, it isn't always about growth in the way that we are sometimes fed to the idea of growth.
[00:56:35] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. Isn't
[00:56:36] Dr Gemma Parker: always about wealth and the idea that we're fed that. But, and do it with people. Find your people. Do it with people.
[00:56:47] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. Yeah. And don't be afraid of taking a risk.
[00:56:50] Wendy Kendall: Mhmm. I'm I'm
[00:56:51] Dr Amy Woolston: pretty risk averse, but you you have to step out of that comfort zone. Don't you? That window of tolerance sometimes and just, see what see what can happen.
[00:57:02] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And for you, has that, would you say those experiences have kind of offered a sense or an experience of healing for you?
[00:57:16] Dr Amy Woolston: What do
[00:57:17] Wendy Kendall: you think has kind of healed for you, if you don't mind me asking?
[00:57:21] Dr Amy Woolston: Think like leaving the NHS, I felt like I was left with a high sense of personal incompetence. You know? And I don't necessarily feel that anymore. And in private practice, I've just got to do a to start with a lot of therapy. And and I'm moving away from that now, but that the opportunity to do that much, just one to one therapy and develop those skills in a way that hadn't really been able to do because of how the system's set up, how it's restricted, you know, the the service criteria that are in place.
[00:57:56] Dr Amy Woolston: I think that developed my skills and and and I could do, CPD. I could do training, which wasn't before possible. So it really, like, offered me just an experience of work that was really valuable. And just this gentle space of reflection, look, you know, it's going okay. You have grown this much.
[00:58:18] Dr Amy Woolston: That was the right thing to do. Try something different. You know, that I think that that has been really healing for me. And, like, I don't have to be, like, a super driven leader. I don't.
[00:58:31] Dr Amy Woolston: It's not me. But like Gemma was saying, if you find your people, that can come that can come through those relationships.
[00:58:42] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. The it's a different model and a different way of being. And as you said, it kind of, build so much capability and capacity into, you know, into you and into the people around you. And it must be really I can imagine it.
[00:59:03] Wendy Kendall: That's really kind of, a healing thing to see that impact as well, the way that people have grown around you too. For you, Gemma, what have you found to be kind of healing through this process?
[00:59:19] Dr Gemma Parker: It's a really interesting question. And we were talking in a different group that Amy and I were in a while ago about the idea of moral injury. And there really was an experience of moral injury for me coming out of the NHS. And I think part of the healing process for that, which perhaps isn't complete. It's an ongoing process.
[00:59:41] Dr Gemma Parker: It has been, being able to address that in the way that I'm working now. Yeah. So having more freedom to respond to people, having more awareness of my own personal ethic and how I am, implementing that in the practice and not feeling constrained, as much by a system that isn't working well because of the stress that it's under. So but also and I recognize some of the things that Amy's saying as well. It's being able to do CPD to support ourselves and to nurture ourselves as well is hugely important.
[01:00:17] Dr Gemma Parker: Being able to choose from a number of models, being able to work with people in the way that they need. And I think that that is healing for parts of us, particularly if we felt historically that we haven't been able to do that. And the the the impact of that injustice, as well.
[01:00:35] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess kind of thinking about time as well, how would you say you've designed your practices to be places that support your sense of well-being and your kind of healthy connection with, community around you? What are and what have you learned from the times when it hasn't worked?
[01:01:03] Dr Amy Woolston: I think like setting up, like, just timescales for me that work, like I've mentioned my children a couple of times, but just being able to work when I wanna work and I and I can't, you know, when I think about the lack of flexibility that some businesses offer now, you know, and how everybody needs to work, it makes my mind boggle. So that's one thing. And I think like we've we rent from another charity and and actually being I'd love my own premises, and I haven't got them. But actually, being with other people, having people around us, and and they've really helped us in other ways, like learning about grants, about how these things are done. You know, that's been really helpful.
[01:01:47] Dr Amy Woolston: So just not being in a silo, I suppose, it has been important. And then, like, making other other connections. So Gemma mentioned the the group we're in and we meet not very often, but we meet. And that's really nice to have that anchored in. I've got a peer supervision group, which is really, really nice and positive and just, like, trying again, not very often, but every now and again, just spending time with people who who do do some work for us.
[01:02:20] Dr Amy Woolston: And, because it can be quite a lonely place, can't it, private practice?
[01:02:26] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of people do talk about that and yet what you've designed is kind of based on, you know, not being in isolation and not being kind of lonely. Absolutely.
[01:02:39] Dr Gemma Parker: I think there's something as well about our ability to recognize that the context has an impact on people's well-being and our own included. Right? And so I was thinking about a time in the NHS where I think I really wasn't particularly well as a result of some of the sort of toxic culture, and the things that were happening. And the solution in other people's minds was to send me off to Occhi Health. And whereas the options that we have now Go
[01:03:10] Wendy Kendall: and fix yourself, Gemma.
[01:03:12] Dr Gemma Parker: Go and fix yourself as an individual that has some kind of problem. Whereas now being able to acknowledge that there might be something about the system that isn't helpful and being able to do something about that rather than pathologize people or pathologize ourselves, I think is is huge for for well-being.
[01:03:31] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so it's it like you say, it's designed in in that sense, you know. What else would you want practitioners to know about feeling empowered about that relationship with the local Community?
[01:03:47] Wendy Kendall: Because usually, you know, we talked about it earlier. It's a big shift. What what do people what would you want people to know about making that shift and feeling more able to have those connections and that strength of connection with their local community?
[01:04:09] Dr Gemma Parker: Don't know.
[01:04:12] Dr Amy Woolston: Because I think it's partly about what where your passion lies, isn't it? You know, and how that emerges in your community. So there was a natural kind of, like, bedding place for us with what we what we wanted to do and where that was pitched and who we might link up with. And, but I think it it yeah. It's probably like knowing what your passion is because you you need to be passionate about it to keep the momentum going.
[01:04:51] Dr Amy Woolston: Don't you? And you and you need to be understand your own connection to that passion.
[01:04:59] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yes.
[01:05:01] Dr Amy Woolston: Yeah. That's a a loose answer.
[01:05:03] Wendy Kendall: No. No. Well, I think, you know, what you were saying earlier about how these in a very organic way, these things kind of emerge. What I really hear from what you say in that is, you know, sometimes we get a sense of a almost like, in IFS, we call them trail heads. Right?
[01:05:23] Wendy Kendall: Sometimes we get these things that we just get really curious about. And there's a sense there of if we follow our curiosity and our, you know, the the idea that this could be something that we're passionate about, actually, it can open up into something that's really meaningful. That's a very kind of organic way of connecting with the things that we find really purposeful. Yeah. So that's, I don't know if that's what you were saying exactly, but that's what I was kind of feeling when you were describing that process.
[01:05:54] Dr Gemma Parker: And similarly, I was I was thinking about, yeah, finding, finding spaces to occupy. And I suppose by that, I also mean people to listen to and connect with who have similar kinds of ideas and that the process can be really slow. I mean, I think I, I joined an organisation called Psychologists Social Change many years ago. And, you know, I am still part of them and enjoy thinking about things in a similar way. I don't know whether that's a trailhead or it's something else, but that's been an influence in that there are then other forums and places and spaces that you can occupy where people talk and think about these things or the concept of community psychology comes about anything.
[01:06:37] Dr Gemma Parker: Okay, I'm just going to learn a bit more about that. And what doors does that open and how does that change my thinking about these kinds of things? And at some point that becomes, oh, I feel more able to act in this way as well, I think.
[01:06:50] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for being here today and for this really rich discussion. I didn't really know where we were gonna go with it, you know?
[01:07:01] Wendy Kendall: But, I just find it so fascinating to kind of, to think about the, I think it's an enormous shift, in, in how we operate as Psychologists. And yeah, I think it I'm hoping, or I'm looking forward to the discussions that we, kind of get following this, this episode. So thanks so much for being here today. Where can we find you on social media, Amy?
[01:07:32] Dr Amy Woolston: We're on Facebook and Instagram and I think we are, we are the koala tree. If you search for that, then we should pop up.
[01:07:40] Wendy Kendall: Awesome. Thank you.
[01:07:42] Dr Gemma Parker: Similarly, I can't remember exactly what they are, but if you, yeah, we're on, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, I think. Right.
[01:07:49] Wendy Kendall: Altogether human. Altogether human. Awesome. Thanks so much for that. There's our little pause.
[01:08:00] Wendy Kendall: So I will keep the recording going, but if you 2 are happy, thank you so much for all of that. I know it was a little bit kind of, wide ranging as well. Yeah. If you're happy to just, click leave studio and then let it do its uploading, and what I will do is I'll be in touch in the next couple of days, just to say another thank you and also to, connect you with Hannah and Ava who are sorting out when the different episodes will come out. So Okay.
[01:08:29] Dr Gemma Parker: Over. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You did.
[01:08:32] Dr Gemma Parker: Enjoy that.
[01:08:51] Wendy Kendall: I think the thing that really struck me in this conversation with Amy and Gemma was how that shift in relationship, you know, changing from almost like being a psychologist where we do psychology to people and you know following values around being more connected with people and being, being part of a Community. Also then shifts so many other dynamics and relationships. So when we think about what does leadership look like, when we think about what does collaboration and cocreation look like, And also, you know, just coming back to these these broader ideas that were around, what does prosperity and wealth and contentment look like for us when we're in more of a place of connection with the community around us. And then also the time and the timescales that things take and how being in connection or being in community with the people that we are working with also means allowing the unfolding over time, and I just think that has some kind of profound things to teach us. Certainly, I'm kind of mulling over what that means when it comes to supporting other psychologists who are thinking about breaking the mold of private Practice, that it's not always about do it quick.
[01:10:40] Wendy Kendall: You know, what what's that saying from from Meta or Facebook? Move fast and break things. It's like the opposite of that. Right? So, you know, move slow and grow things.
[01:10:54] Wendy Kendall: So, yeah, I I think also being known in different ways and being known for different parts of ourselves as well as for being, you know, the Psychologists parts of ourselves. That means being known in a more holistic way by the people around us, and I think that can also be profoundly healing as an experience. So thanks for being with us today. Thanks for listening to this conversation, and I'm looking forward to hearing about what you think about healing through your private practice and being in connection with community.
