[00:00:03] Wendy Kendall: Hello, and welcome to this episode. Today, the episode or the title that we're speaking to is Safe Spaces, creating a practice when you identify as part of the marginalized community. And I've really Been looking forward to this episode but also with a kind of sense of trepidation because I think it's such an important topic for us to talk about and I think it's also not necessarily an easy topic to kind of work through in our private practices. But I know from my own experience, and I know from working with other psychologists that, you know, when we think about this whole topic of why do people go into private practice, It's a very real situation that some of us go into private practice because we need to create a safe Place in a safe working environment for ourselves, and that's sometimes because of our own experiences coming from different kinds of marginal what we might call marginalized groups or communities. And it's not necessarily the case that we come into private practice in order to then directly serve that community.
[00:01:29] Wendy Kendall: But sometimes there are Aspirations or questions about what we can do as psychologists to then act in service to kind of the community that we're also part of. And I think that raises a lot of questions and topics. So, here I am today with doctor Anissa Doctor Sharif and doctor Melody Smith, who are both clinical psychologists, but Coming from different backgrounds, both professionally and personally. Welcome to this episode. And what I would love to invite you to do is Introduce yourselves a little bit more, also introduce your practices, and then perhaps share whatever you're comfortable with about your own story in this area.
[00:02:16] Wendy Kendall: So if it's alright, can I come to
[00:02:18] Dr Aneesa Shariff: you first, Aneesa? Yes. Definitely. Thanks, Wendy, for having me on today. So, I'm Anissa, and I recently started in private practice 6 months ago.
[00:02:31] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So in my private practice, I Specialize in working with professionals who are dealing with anxiety, burnout, and trauma. But in my supervision work, I specialize in providing clinical supervision around issues of Providing culturally inclusive therapy and, cultural issues as they play out in the therapy space. So that's a little bit about what I do now. And so in terms of kind of the back Story of how I landed in private practice, not too long ago. So as you can tell from my accent, I I'm not from the UK.
00:03:17 Experience of working in the NHS as a second-generation immigrant South Asian Muslim
[00:03:17] Dr Aneesa Shariff: I am from Canada, grew up, trained in Canada, worked there for a while and then moved here and, was very excited to get my first NHS role, and and the department was very excited to have someone, from a different ethnic background because we our trust served a lot of patients from, South Asian, Pakistani, Sunni Muslim community, and I identify as a second generation immigrant South Asian Muslim. So they were very excited to kind of increase their diversity. I was excited to be there. And then slowly over time, I guess, it was quite a learning process for me to adapt To a very managed system, and that was kind of not what I was used to working in Canada. It was very collegial once we were qualified, whereas within the NHS system, it was very hierarchical still, so that took a bit of getting used to.
[00:04:23] Dr Aneesa Shariff: But then also, I just started to notice discrepancies in how I was received when I would start to, Want to talk about career progression. And so it was very much met with, kind of just, No. You're not. You're in your banding, you're not paid to do that kind of work. So it was very much a stay in your lane type of message rather than Inviting conversation, especially as I was kind of working in a lower banded role, having not had the NHS experience prior, even though I had, years of qualified experience in Canada.
[00:05:05] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And then I would get a lot of verbal feedback that was very Positive around my leadership skills, wanting me to provide presentations on, culturally inclusive therapy, racial micro questions, wanting me to serve as a BAME interviewer on the interviewing panel. But then blocking me from and discouraging me from applying for promotions within the department. So A lot of assumptions were made about me when I would, express interest in these roles, around lack of experience, when they hadn't actually asked me what my experience was. And so I was learning that there was a lot of discrepancies, and it was really confusing for me. I Couldn't really make sense of it at first as to why it was being received in that way, why other people with less experience were being actively supported in their career progression and I when I wasn't.
[00:06:01] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And so it was a lot of emphasis around this tokenistic kind of Representation. You know, I was a person of color. I was the right color, and they needed that representation within the department, but then I was very much being sidelined or, you know, further marginalized in a way to kind of, You know, you you're kind of about bums on seats. You're you're not kind of about, going into a role that where there's leadership And, you know, more of a central role in things, and it it kind of felt very, Confusing. I felt very used at the time, and it took me a long time.
[00:06:43] Dr Aneesa Shariff: This is a 2 year process for me, probably about a year before I started to really understand, after having had some conversations with people, that and it was named that this was actually systemic racism. It was very subtle. It wasn't this overt kind of racism or discrimination, But it was a subtle kind of subversive blocking and, lots of stereotypical types of assumptions were being made, assumptions about my experience, when I was asserting myself and and and questioning that with the people, they would backtrack and say, well, no, it's not about experience, it's about skill. When I would highlight my skills, they would backtrack again, and it was this kind of really confusing process, and it was quite a shock to me. I felt very It took me a long time to really recognize what was happening in that system.
[00:07:37] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So that's kind of the backstory of, You know, where I was before I entered private practice.
[00:07:44] Wendy Kendall: Right. Yeah. And I'm going to So thank you for sharing that. And I'm gonna come back to then the kind of pivot to what led to private practice, but I wanna come to Melody first Kind of ask the same question, please. A little bit of an introduction into your different practice areas and then also into kind of your story.
[00:08:08] Dr Melody Smith: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Wendy. So I'm Melody. I'm a clinical psychologist. I qualified in 2019.
[00:08:17] Dr Melody Smith: Born and raised in London. So really intrigued to hear more about your experience, Aneesah. At the moment, I am working, I specialize In working with primarily young people with neurodevelopmental conditions, so autism and ADHD. And in my private practice, we provide Some assessments, but we also provide parenting interventions and parenting, work, to support parents who have children with Autism, ADHD, but also present with behaviors that challenge, and by that I mean kind of Physical aggression or verbal aggression, but also difficulties around kind of, tasks that we need to do with Children, like, getting them ready for school and, brushing teeth and things like that. But as parents, we just have to get through, but We want to do them with a little less, resistance, but but also kind of highlighting that we don't want it to be kind of a forced thing For the children and for it to be a dictatorship.
[00:09:20] Dr Melody Smith: So I support parents, and young people around that. And then I also, I'm the director of a company organization called Aspiring Clinical Psych, and the remit of the company essentially is to support aspiring psychologists who, as it says, want to become clinical psychologists, but are coming up against those typical stumbling blocks, you know, career confusion, anxieties around applying and knowing whether it's the right time to apply and whether they have the right skills, but also supporting them to kind of and empowering them really To, talk about their own experience and reflect on their own experience. And so we provide a a a number of different kind of offerings and services. So career coaching, but also live events. So, reflective workshops, journal clubs, we have an online course as well, that supports aspiring psychologists to really illuminate the, competencies of a clinical psychologist, which Quite often they have in some degree to some degree, but maybe aren't so conscious of of those amazing skills that they have.
[00:10:31] Dr Melody Smith: And, of course, in order to become a clinical psychologist, it's so important to be able to articulate what we can do. As as Anise has already mentioned, Sometimes we can come up against real resistance in terms of being able to move forwards in our careers, and so supporting aspiring psychologists Surround that. Sorry. I've got something in my throat. I'm just gonna clear it.
[00:10:53] Dr Melody Smith: Excuse me. So, yeah, that's a little bit about what I do now, and I I spend, You know, at the moment, the majority of my time working in clinical practice, and about a third of my time working with Aspiring Psychologists, with Aspiring Clinical Psych. And I think, really I Started, branching out from NHS. So I when I qualified, I went into a learning disability team Within the NHS. And, of course, we come across a lot of neurodevelopmental conditions, and I absolutely enjoyed that work, which is why I still do a lot of it really.
[00:11:31] Dr Melody Smith: But while I was working there, I kind of came from a I'm gonna say kind of a wounded healer kind of position in terms of building aspiring clinical psych. Training for me was really, really challenging. You know, I, I'm a black woman in an environment where there aren't a lot of black clinical psychologists. And so really felt it was important to not only try and do something to support aspiring Psychologists like myself, or or even people that are are different to me to feel more empowered and confident about progressing towards the career. But also wanting to kind of provide spaces, to prepare them for the challenges that are inevitably going to come, for for all aspiring psychologists.
[00:12:19] Dr Melody Smith: And so, yeah, started out kind of building that in 20 2020. And, around the same time, became a mother for the second time And realize that, being a mom of 2, working in the NHS is very challenging. Not only because of sleepless nights and school runs and, you know, homework in the evening, but also in terms of, you know, needing to work part time and not being financially in a position where I can make decisions and choices, in the best interest of my family. So, you know, that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back really, not Feeling as though I had time to really focus on my family in addition to working within the NHS. And, Unfortunately, I say unfortunately because at the time, I was really sad to to leave the NHS, but I felt that in order to be able to Work more hours and earn more money. I needed to put my daughter into childcare earlier than I had hoped to, and that was gonna eat up most of the money that I was gonna be, making in terms of kind of having choices. And so I really felt backed To a corner, really. And, you know, had that rude awakening of in order for me to be able to live a life that's fulfilling for the next few years, Something has to change. Something has to give. I need to be able to sustain myself and my family or at least my part of of the of my family, Finances, in a in a shorter period of time, and Private practice made that possible for me, sort of, in in alignment with working with Aspiring Clinical Psych as well, which I was doing most evenings, in addition to working part time and raising a family.
[00:14:20] Dr Melody Smith: So, Yeah. I just find that working in private practice has enabled me to have more ownership over the time that I do have so that hopefully I mean, as As much as possible, it's not quite materializing at the moment, but as much as possible, I can give more time to, my family. And, certainly, I do have, ownership over the time that I spend working now. So that's a little bit about me and where I'm at and what led me to private practice.
[00:14:48] Wendy Kendall: Thank you. And what I also kind of note with that, that something that kind of brings to mind some elements of my own journey is the ability to also and, Anissa, you also kind of referred to this in the work that you do in your private practice, which is being able to also Bring work in that is purposeful, that has kind of meaning and purpose behind it, particularly because of Own lived experiences. So it's an essence of being able to, deliver work, but not having to I think that's something I observe a lot as well. You know, sometimes when we're working in areas where we're trying to, support people who have Experienced oppression and marginalization that when it's in areas that particularly touch our own lives, if we do that all the time, it can it can feel very, It can feel a lot to hold all of that space all the time, and at least then within private practice, you're also empowered to Right size that support that you offer, so, you know, to fit with where you you're at and what your what kind of emotional Oh, psychological bandwidth you have for that at the time as well.
[00:16:07] Wendy Kendall: Just to kind of share and be a little bit Kind of open with people about, my own experience in this area. So and I mentioned this To Anissa and Melody before we started the conversation as well. So My own experience of being part of a marginalized group is the marginalized group of people who are care experienced or adopted. And so, you know, just to kind of put that in a nut nutshell, I gave evidence last year to the UK All Party Parliamentary Committee for Human Rights is a very long title because there was A quite in-depth inquiry into the human rights violations over the right Family and, for the forced adoption era that happened after the war and up until The end of the 19 seventies. And that meant that people who were not married or whose face didn't fit Just literally had their children removed from them as early after birth as whenever.
[00:17:22] Wendy Kendall: And then there's a cohort of probably about, You know, at least a 185,000 of us in the UK alone who then, you know, had our Original identities hidden from us who were absolutely severed from our families, who were kept in these very closed, It's literally called closed adoption. And the difficult element with it is that it's an often, But not always an invisible form of marginalization. There's a lot of intersections with other, experiences. But at the end of the day it's, you know, it's it's an area for Activism, and it's an area that kind of impinges, or intersects with my own practice. It's something that is often overlooked and negated as being on the receiving end of a system of oppression, but what the Human Rights Committee very much Revealed in their report was that, this was very much a system of oppression that had been operating.
[00:18:34] Wendy Kendall: You know, we can talk about that Cross the kind of different parts of the world. That led to a change in the law because one of the last vestiges is of this system in law in the UK was it's not the only, but it was one of them, that In law, you could not offer therapy to adopted people, even adults, unless As a psychologist or psychotherapist, you were registered with off Ofsted, which is the office for standards in education, as a registered adoption services provider. And that meant that, there were There were very, restricted numbers of therapists available for adult adopted people. What that meant for me as a psychologist, I don't offer therapy, but I was also very wary of ever offering even coaching or any kinds of services to people. I know, for example, that, this intersects with people's The way in which we show up in our businesses and the way in which we show up at work, and so thinking about how we kind of Support people to move forward in terms of their work and their working lives, which is, you know, my thing as an occupational psychologist.
[00:20:03] Wendy Kendall: I was absolutely determined that There was no way I would even go near that until the law was changed. And then ultimately, the law has only been changed in December of last year, and so now Anyone who is a psychologist can offer therapy. It's not my intention to offer therapy. But one of the questions is, for me, What could be a way of supporting people who I know are living without many services and often overlooked? So that's kind of also a little bit my, interest in this topic because as a psychologist, it sometimes feels really difficult and uncomfortable to navigate my way in a profession That has and sometimes does still play a role in upholding a system of oppression that I've experienced.
[00:20:58] Wendy Kendall: And I'm just wondering about what your perspectives are on some of those, elements as well. You know, it's often very multilayered and so on. But, Anissa, I saw you were kind of nodding your head there about that.
[00:21:13] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I think it's it's so interesting, isn't it, sometimes the even the ethical and moral Dilemmas we have, you know, psychologists can be part of an oppressive system in that way Even though that very much goes against our standards and values, and it's such a tricky place to find ourselves in, and I think Can cause a lot of moral injury as well, especially, I mean, moral injury once you recognize that you are working within a system and and Formulating that system as oppressive. But when you're not able to see it in that way, you know, it can be quite a different situation as well.
[00:21:56] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, coming back to your own experience of that, what were some of the pivotal moments That led to you deciding to shift your relationship with the practice of psychology and kind of legally move out of that.
[00:22:14] Wendy Kendall: You know, me legally meaning legal structure out of a, you know, a job or employment and into private practice.
[00:22:23] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So for me, I think the pivotal moment of this kind of 2 year journey I was on was when it was actually named by the EVI manager in my trust and the department head as systemic racism, and I had never used those words. And actually, I was quite naive in that way, even with all the previous research I'd done in microaggressions and things, that I wasn't actually able to see it when it was happening to me. And so when that was named in that way, I actually felt relieved. I felt Shocked. And then I thought, okay.
[00:23:01] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Things can change, you know, and then nothing changed. So they It was named, and the people involved were never called to account for their actions. Nothing was ever facilitated in Practically supporting me to, to address those issues. And so It you know, the behaviors continued, very subtle behaviors, you know, around being ignored, being excluded from meetings, Having the scope of my role reduced, and it finally came to a head when I said, you know, enough is enough. I felt like I had to remove myself from that system to keep my mental health intact because I was so demoralized at this point, and I felt really victimized by this point in time, and I'd never seen myself really working outside of the NHS.
[00:23:55] Dr Aneesa Shariff: I really valued being part of that system. So I kind of, in a way, felt forced into private practice at first. But, the week I went live with my private practice was the same week I I kind of drew a line in the sand And handed in my notice, and that was very much against my original plan of slowly building private practice up alongside
[00:24:20] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Stable employment. But it had just gotten to a head where I just felt like I couldn't I couldn't Continue to put myself in a situation where I was really being used and felt very exploited by this point, when people were being enabled to continue these behaviors, so I very much Started my 3 month notice period, and, you know, that for me was a defining moment, really, where things started to turn that I had to make a choice, that that was actually the courageous choice for me, rather than to kind of escalate things, was to actually put my energy into giving myself the opportunities that, others were Kind of not supporting me to take and to step away from this kind of tokenistic system of, well, we need more diversity within our workforce, Yeah. But not when those people want a leadership role and are qualified to deal with that. We want them, but we want them on the sidelines, or we want them as BAME interviewers or other things. So, for me, that was really the point at which things started to change, and it was really scary Making that leap, especially so quickly.
[00:25:37] Dr Aneesa Shariff: But I think it just came to that point where The the pain of staying in that system and allowing myself to feel disempowered was worse than the fear and the uncertainty of leaping straight into the known and potentially empowering myself in the process.
[00:25:54] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, yeah, Melody, I'm just reflecting on what you were saying about both being, a black woman trained as a clinical you know, black woman black female clinical psychologist And also then, these layers of messages which were, you know, we have policies about stability for motherhood and, flexibility for, you know, looking after children and so on and not necessarily very flexible. And and, you know, What one would hope would be an aspiration to retain more people who, you know, were more representative.
[00:26:33] Wendy Kendall: So Yeah. Yeah. What were what were any pivot pivotal moments for you around that?
[00:26:39] Dr Melody Smith: Yeah. I mean, I think what Anissa said about the moral injury Ring so true for me. And I think what really and and microaggressions. Because I think really, You know, what that makes me think about is that often we go through these things and they have such a huge impact on how we feel, but because people aren't it's very difficult to articulate what's happening because it's so complicated. The, You know, overlapping between the things that are going on and and how they're impacting us.
[00:27:15] Dr Melody Smith: What what what I found is that it's it's it's difficult to find Support and difficult to find people that can truly name what it is that's what's that's going on. And so I found that there was a compound effect Over time, I think that there were a couple of pivotal things that happened for me. So for example, you know, Obviously, we all went through COVID, and we were working from home a lot. And, actually, the fact that I was working from home a lot made it possible for me to have a bit more balance. But of course, we went back to working in a slightly different way, and, you know, Mostly, I was okay with, you know, changing the way that I would work, but I think that there was pressures to do it In a time frame that wasn't really feasible considering childcare arrangements and all of the things that I'd set up in order to be able to work, Go back to work in the 1st place.
[00:28:14] Dr Melody Smith: There wasn't so much, empathy around kind of, what it would take in order to unravel some of that and then put new plans into place. It was kind of like, well, this is what we expect, And so this is gonna happen in 2 weeks' time. And I found that to be deeply, deeply Wounding for me because it not only shook shook up everything that I was was happening and that I was relying on To to remain constant for a period of time so that I could be at work, but it also just felt like I I was disconnected from the people that I actually felt Quite close to at the time, you know, working with, and, and and that was really, really a sad and and rude awakening For me, but I think, you know, actually, you know, one of the one of the things that I think, you know, throughout training and Just throughout my qualified practice that I feel I was doing is is an element of of masking in a way. You know, an element of not really bringing the whole of myself to work, and that was chipping away at me slowly as well.
[00:29:28] Dr Melody Smith: You know, so, you know, when when those bigger situations happened where, you know, things are being changed or, you know, and I I felt like I wasn't being empathized towards. You know, naturally, there was a part of me that wanted to kind of Break free from that because, actually, I was holding on to quite a lot, and that extra bit just, you know, just Tipped me over the edge, but it would seem completely out of character for me to act out about it because I've been masking How difficult or how, myself, for a long time. So, yeah, I just Felt like I couldn't really bring my whole reaction to that. I felt a bit disingenuous, which, you know, layered on top of that is this idea of the imposter syndrome and the imposter that we all have an element of. But, you know, as people from so called marginalized backgrounds, You know, there is always well, I feel like there's just a layer a thicker layer of that happening That really maps on to that kind of masking behavior that I was talking about.
[00:30:35] Dr Melody Smith: Exactly. And one of the things that It's kind
[00:30:38] Wendy Kendall: of I was kind of making notes as as I was listening to you about, you know, this topic of Moral injury, microaggressions. Anita, I think as you were talking, I wrote down that it's kind of a surreptitious system. You know? As you said, there are the these kind of little ways in which and I think, Melody, you alluded to it as well, small ways in which a system enacts itself that, that lead to certain outcomes, but almost like, you know well, what I've written is it's in the interest of the System to kind of hide itself. Right?
[00:31:14] Wendy Kendall: It it it it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing. And Yeah. I think, I think sometimes, like, it these systems of oppression, these systems whereby people's identities are, exiled parts of their identities need to be exiled in order for them to be present in that system, where their power is reduced so that they can't challenge that system. Where you know? And That system relies on the rest of us becoming complicit, and therefore, it allows us to have those little cloaks of invisibility as well.
[00:32:00] Wendy Kendall: Because then we are able to kind of enact it. And, I mean, what you what you said there, Melody, that really resonated with me is this element of masking and how it gets to a point where you skin and how it gets to a point where you can't continue to hide those parts of yourself Or to be squashed down by the system in that way to have those parts of yourself kind of exiled. And it was a similar thing for me. I'd never talked about I never thought that this topic of flipping adoption would come into my work as a psychologist. Yeah.
[00:32:37] Wendy Kendall: When I'm working a lot alongside clinical psychologists and I'm getting involved in or I'm at least observing or witnessing discussions, and I'm like, That's not even how it is from the inside. Like, what about all these other questions that come up? And then as you said, Melody, when you speak out about it,
[00:32:58] Wendy Kendall: of you I've had both those examples so either the system has come back and like what you're talking about, you know, who are you to talk about this etcetera Or, you know, Anisa, people will kind of go, oh, yeah. That's a good idea. Oh, yeah. Oh, oh, yeah. We can name how that's a problem, but There we go.
[00:33:13] Wendy Kendall: We're just gonna carry on doing it. And it just blows my mind.
[00:33:21] Dr Melody Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel I don't know.
[00:33:26] Dr Melody Smith: Sorry to jump in there, but I feel like
[00:33:28] Dr Melody Smith: in so many different shapes and forms because I think, you know, I I would like to say that working in private practice, I haven't experienced that, but it's not it's not the case. I think, You know, working with Aspiring Clinical Psych, I think that I don't I don't know. People don't Like some of what I do and what I've found is that, people will throw legal structures At you.
[00:33:57] Dr Melody Smith: know? Right. And that's very scary. It's very scary. It's threatening.
[00:34:04] Dr Melody Smith: You know, nobody wants to receive, you know, correspondence from lawyers, not less lawyers of large organizations. And, you know, really and and and, you know, not not even just that, but also, you know, we we market ourselves online, And there are trolls and people that just say and do nasty things, and and you know this is all this is all part of of a of a similar kind of system whereby, you know, at the end of it, my part of my training and part of my registration and part of Who I am is to operate in a way that I'm doing what I'm doing with integrity
[00:34:46] Dr Melody Smith: suggest that I'm doing otherwise is It's just awful. So, you know, that that, you know, that that that that's also come into play, you know, and having to Navigate that as somebody who isn't financially privileged, who doesn't okay. I've I've got decent education behind me, But I don't necessarily have lots of finances or, lots of people in places that can advise me in that way, so it almost felt a bit like bullying. Well, actually, you know, in terms of legal structures, pretty approachable, actually. I'm on every social media platform you can imagine.
[00:35:26] Dr Melody Smith: Ask me for my email address. You can have it. We can have a conversation. But instead instead to to kind of, to kind of, It's felt like to kind of throw their weight around or to make a point. They will throw legal structures in the mix.
[00:35:43] Dr Melody Smith: And I just think, well, that's nice for you to have that, you know, available to you. And what what can I do? You just have to respond.
[00:35:52] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:58] Wendy Kendall: Anissa, you were talking there about are also moral injury. And I'm just thinking about the work that you do also with other health professionals around that. Is it Similar thing where, you know, what's been your experience of kind of moving into that area of work and How, any of how you continue to witness some of this stuff or how you feel as though you can make a change in the area? Yeah.
[00:36:30] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Well, I think in terms of, you know, when I think about the type of training that's Available in doctoral programs for providing culturally responsive therapy to clients. I think it's quite a mixed bag. Some some programs provide very little, and for some, it's a series of seminars. And I think What they all have in common is that they're very, from what I have heard anyways, intellectualized. So they're very even the ones that I used to give in my Hartman, they were very much presentation based.
[00:37:06] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And what we really need is to reflect On our own world views, our own, biases, our values and and be very conscious of us, of ourselves and what we're bringing into the therapy space because we bring our worldview with us and it's very easy if we're not really aware Of, of how culture bound these things are to project it inadvertently on our clients. So I think there's a lot more need for that reflection and consciousness raising part in kind of training programs today, and also just Skills based, how do you adapt the therapy models that are, you know, again, they they haven't been developed With marginalized communities in mind, and so the people who are now coming to therapy very courageously, they're over coming lots of cultural stigma, to access therapy for the first time in ways they might not have a generation ago. If we're not providing in, you know, a safe space for them where they can reflect on their values, where they can bring in their cultural and religious spiritual beliefs and practices into the therapy space, which is what I hear a lot from my clients, actually, When they've had previous therapy experiences, by the time they've come to me, they've often, you know, been around the block a few times And found it, you know, not as helpful because they they've had to shy away from talking about religion or talking about, You know, culture, or worse, they talk about culture and it's stereotyped, you know, or perceived in a certain way that's not helpful for them.
[00:39:00] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So, I feel like, as well, we need the skills based. How do we adapt assessment practices. Most of our assessment tools are not normed on people from diverse populations. So there's a lot of adaptations that sometimes, you know, are very easy to overlook, But we you know, very important for making it part of a safe space. So a lot of the work that I do in supervision is around these deeper levels of, making your practice culturally responsive, inclusive.
[00:39:38] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And it's not just about, You know, bringing in an interpreter or going to a CPD, for an hour or 2, it's really about grappling with these choose, reflecting on yourself and developing the awareness of adaptations and cultivating that safe space. So right from the first assessment, you're able to freely ask clients, you know, do you have any spiritual, religious, or cultural beliefs that that might be coping mechanisms for them during times of difficulty and distress, and so they're getting that message right from the initial Contact. So these are kind of some of the ways I try and bring that into the work that I'm doing now in private practice.
[00:40:24] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And I'm curious with that, about your perspective on How we this this idea of validating approaches, like which approaches get validated and which Approaches don't get validated. So, obviously, what we do within, inspiring psychology practices is we work a lot with practitioners to help them diversify their products and services. And I'm very much of the I mean, we have a design school, within the within the, program that we run, and it's very much about designing products and services with the people that you're serving and not just doing it to them. Because there's been a lot of history of us as psychologists generally doing psychology to Populations and, you know, forgetting certain groups and communities, just completely overlooking them.
[00:41:29] Wendy Kendall: And, you know, a lot of research getting done on male white college students. I mean, that's almost, like, infamous now. But I'm curious because what you're describing there to me sounds like first of all, I love this This point of yours which is let's get out of the intellect intellectualization and get into the embodiment of what this practice looks like, What a culturally sensitive practice looks like and feels like in in practice. And then the thing that comes up a lot for my clients is if I do things differently, like if I step outside the box And the box, we know, is a certain shape and fits certain people. But if I step outside that box, I'm gonna get the legal structures after me again.
[00:42:19] Wendy Kendall: And I just wonder what you know, how have you negotiated around that? What has been your experience? It's kind of a question for both of you, but I'm gonna come to Anissa.
[00:42:32] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I think you can still have the box in mind, whatever Shape that box is whichever model you're using. But I think it's about expanding really Rather than kind of going into territory that's outside the scope of, you know, your practice or your skill set. So for example, If I'm doing, I don't know, CBT with a client, a a a useful way to adapt that is to and this a client who has a strong religious background is to sometimes, you know, consult with a religious leader on whether they're, How they're thinking about something or to bring in their religious scriptures and look through that for, You know, evidence, so to speak. There can be so many different ways, but I think sometimes as well, It comes up a lot with, professional boundaries too.
[00:43:25] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Like, we're kind of taught that, you know, We can't go to, you know, accept any invitations or gift giving. There's very strict rules around that. But for clients from certain cultures, For them, that's really important. And especially if you're working in a small community, a rural community, you might be the you might be the only psychologist, and you might be Seeing them, you know, around the village a lot as well. And so, I think in some of the training I've done previously, we we were encouraged to really reflect on if we got an invitation to a client's Son's wedding, for example.
[00:44:04] Dr Aneesa Shariff: You know, to really grapple with that ethically rather than it be a strict no, that would be Right. You know, A blurring of the boundaries. But really, perhaps, that would actually not be in a certain case, and it might be actually interpreted very differently by a client. So, again, there's lots of different ways we can kind of Stay in the box. But again, it's about that reflexivity in our thinking processes and really thinking case by case, Culture by culture, what, what feels important, to that person and what are the ways we can connect with them in the therapy room And really build that safe space and that rapport with them in ways that might look different to reflecting feelings and doing the usual that, You know, kind of authentic presence for some clients from different cultural backgrounds that can feel quite intimidating and Yeah.
[00:44:58] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Sure. Scary. So I think it's just about that reflexive thought, really.
[00:45:05] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. And, if There's an element here of what I'm hearing is that when we think about this kind of sis system or this box that we operate within that, You know, has almost like prescriptions for what is ethical and what is right and what is best practice and so on. I think What I hear a little bit as well is, okay. Great. That's how it that's how it can look, but when we go back to first principles around things like ethics and we reflect on it.
[00:45:35] Wendy Kendall: Actually, we can see ways in which this can also look different but still adhere within this, You know, the the principles of the ethics that we're talking about, if that makes sense.
[00:45:45] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. So a common one that I get just really quickly is Parents emailing initial inquiries on behalf of an adult child or a sibling or somebody else. Now, traditionally, we're taught that, you know, it's the client. We should be prioritizing their autonomy. They're an adult.
[00:46:04] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Please get them to contact me directly. But in reality, like, that that's just not the way I approach these inquiries because if I do that, for people who are scared to get in touch with me themselves, they might be highly anxious, they might have just outsourced this task and really trust this family member to source them a good, you know, therapist or psychologist. So, you know, I always tend to be accepting of, dealing with the family or a couple. Sometimes they'll come to the 1st session with them. And as long as the client is okay with that arrangement, you know, I'm gonna pull up a chair and bring them into the room.
[00:46:45] Dr Aneesa Shariff: I'm not gonna be Sending them out of the room, if the client wants them there and values their presence. And then most of the time, it's just an initial contact Or it might be 1 session or 2 they attend, and once they know their family member is connected, is feeling supported, They're okay to be outside of the room or, you know, for the client to come on their own. So I think that's just another example of being a bit reflexive, being flexible, and thinking about who has come up with these standards. Again, people from marginalized communities weren't there, You know, developing these standards, these professional guidelines at the time they were being developed, they may be involved now, but at the time, they haven't changed that much. If we think about the ordering of our ethics and and how we prioritize things in terms of client autonomy at the top of the list.
[00:47:42] Wendy Kendall: And what I hear there also is people showing people showing their agency Like it's their like, you're referring to their choice and and the trust in the relationship that they have, and therefore bringing that in feels like a positive resource for them, which is respecting their agency to make that decision for themselves. Right?
[00:48:05] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I think clients can make the choice to have family members involved or to initiate, You know, those initial inquiries. Mhmm.
[00:48:18] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And so I think it's important to think about how we can make it easier for them to To access the services rather than create additional barriers.
[00:48:28] Wendy Kendall: I'm very mindful. I know, Melody, you joined us, And, you were also this was also my fault because I got the timing wrong for us to start. And, Melody, you also have to go to a meeting. So I know that we're into your time and you may need to drop off now, but I it's just been great to hear from you and to be with you in this, session. And so thank you for being here.
[00:48:52] Dr Melody Smith: Thank you so much for having me, and it's been wonderful to be able to be part of this. And, thank you so much for sharing your stories as well. It's been very insightful. Paul, thank you. Hope you have
[00:49:01] Wendy Kendall: a good rest of the session. Thanks so much.
[00:49:04] Dr Melody Smith: Take care.
[00:49:05] Wendy Kendall: Speak to you soon.
[00:49:06] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Nice to meet you, Melanie. Elodie. Take care. Bye.
[00:49:14] Wendy Kendall: Bye. Yeah. So I'm just reflecting now about, you know, Thinking about this this topic of how do we, well, I'm just wondering if you can share with us Where maybe kind of going into private practice has has been actually Has been kind of difficult or where there's felt like there's been some sticking points? Or has it been kind of plain sailing for you?
[00:49:51] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I think initially, because of the way in which I jumped ship essentially, it was I think the start of it was the most difficult for me. Again, I'm only 6 months in, so I may easily encounter more challenges as I go. But I think initially it was just the adjustment of and the anger I felt around, well, I'm feeling pushed into this Before I feel fully ready to go. Mhmm.
[00:50:21] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And so I think just kind of making peace and with that and accepting that that's just the way my my NHS kind of career played out, and that it would still be there, if this Venture didn't work out. And and it's not that I could never go back, so this wasn't a permanent Change, but that I needed to try something different where I really felt like I was empowered and there was nothing There were no barriers, because I think for me, as an immigrant child, the first in my family to go to university and having to go through all those barriers of trying to navigate that journey to the, You know, to the PhD and to this kind of professional role, I'd already kind of had to overcome so much. And then to encounter that In in kind of my employed role, just I I just could not accept that that would be my journey. So I think it was a bit of stubbornness. And so the initial challenges in private practice were about the fear.
[00:51:28] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Will I get any clients? What am I doing? This is crazy. So a lot of kind of, those types of imposter syndrome was really huge for me, especially at the start, And just bringing kind of that home, you know, dealing with the financial aspect with clients that I'd never had to worry about before, into things. But, actually, after that initial kind of Starting point, because by the time I finished, my notice period was August.
[00:52:03] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So I think for the month of August, I had very few inquiries and I was starting to panic a bit. Obviously, it is summertime, but then things slowly started to sort themselves out. And I think, Since then, honestly, I rarely think about that time now. I think it's felt like this has been my therapy and my healing for me to start my private practice. Yeah.
[00:52:26] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Because for so long, I felt undervalued, demoralized, underemployed, being told that I was over qualified for the banding that I was in.
[00:52:37] Dr Aneesa Shariff: But then feeling stuck at that level, and and actively oppressed, I guess you could say. So by moving into private practice, now I feel like the world is my oyster again. And Yeah. You know, obviously, there's constraints on what I can do and how I'm doing things. But I do feel like I've got so much freedom now to move in the directions I want to move in, practice in the way that I think, You know, it's best for me and my clients.
[00:53:10] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And, you know, I've slowly come out of that whole imposter syndrome phase, and I've now started to just feel like I I I don't really think about that time anymore because it's been such a transformative experience for me, and I feel like I've finally got, myself back, you know, in terms of my professional identity.
[00:53:33] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There's 2 things there that I'm I'm really curious about. 1, you raised the topic of valuing yourself.
[00:53:44] Wendy Kendall: And I think For us as psychologists, sometimes for us as women, and also within the that funny AI thing keeps popping up if I use hand gestures. You know, and I'll try and not use so many hands.
[00:54:05] Wendy Kendall: I I almost can't speak unless I use my hands. So, you know, I'll keep them off the screen. First thing in terms of valuing ourselves as psychologists. Now I don't know what the whether there's the same culture in Canada as there is in the UK, But, you know, as as psychologists and I think I have seen some stats for North America somewhere that, you know, there's this thing of, When professions become female dominated, it can tend to lead to a devaluing of the services that we offer. We have this particular aspect within the UK.
[00:54:44] Wendy Kendall: I don't know if it's other places, but because we have universal healthcare system, There is also a tendency to almost see any kind of charging as An over like, we should be able to do it for free is kind of the assumption. Right? And so that can kind of lead to us putting a ceiling on our own valuation. And then I think there are other things that I've seen is us wondering about how we can meet the needs of a marginalized group that themselves don't have access to resources because of an oppressive system. And, Yet, how can we charge for those services?
[00:55:35] Wendy Kendall: And so I just Wonder if you came across any of those struggles as you were kind of thinking about how to literally value yourself in your private practice and how you kinda work through those.
[00:55:48] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I think the valuing bit and, You know, how to price myself, really, was a huge, huge, thing for me. But I do think, yeah, there is Something culturally different between the UK and North America that is quite apparent for me. So for me, I guess maybe I didn't struggle with that as much because in in Canada, Most of psychology is private. There's very limited scope within the public health care system anyways For therapy and for other kind of services like dentistry and other things, they've always been private.
[00:56:31] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And so I think there's a very different, approach there. I think It might be considered more capitalist in terms of how people view these services. But, yeah, I did Struggle with it from an imposter syndrome, a pro, you know, side of things, you know. Am I am I adding this much value in a 50 minute session? Am I really worth that that kind of money?
[00:56:59] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And I think in terms of working with people from different sectors and walks of life, I still do some associate work where it's contracted to NHS Services. So I am still seeing a good proportion of clients who are funded by the NHS, and that provides me with a good balance As well, and I do tend to see a much more ethnically diverse group of people through that kind of Pathway. Mhmm. But, yeah, I think it was difficult at first. But at the same time, I think To make it viable for me to be doing this and to do it well, I had to price myself.
[00:57:47] Dr Aneesa Shariff: I had to factor that in, and I had to really Kind of just do it even though I was really uncomfortable with it. And then over time, I've slowly gotten a bit more I wouldn't say comfortable, but it's it's not as glaring to me that I've got that strong imposter syndrome the way I did when I first started out.
[00:58:07] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I just wanted to ask you about is about this topic of empowerment because you've mentioned that a few times, and I I can really agree with you that, you know, in our private practices, we can get this sense of a safe base. And from the safe base, We can start to feel more empowered and, you know, start to embrace more of who we are. And the thing that, in fact, we had some kind of other podcast conversations where we've talked then about this topic of courageous leadership and, You know, a kind of role for actives activism and how our practices can actually be a safe place from which we can Advocate for change.
[00:58:51] Wendy Kendall: And I'm just wondering how you felt about that, how you've navigated that process, and What your kind of aspirations for that are in the future?
[00:59:03] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I I think I mean, I've got some ideas of how I want to kind of take that forward, that are very kind of Still growing in my mind. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.
[00:59:17] Dr Aneesa Shariff: But I really would like to I'm not gonna ask you
[00:59:19] Wendy Kendall: to dish all the details right now. Right?
[00:59:22] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. Yeah. But I really would like to do more for aspiring clinical psychologists coming from ethnically minoritized backgrounds. I feel like that for me is really where a big passion of mine lies because I had to navigate so much. You know, in in the South Asian culture, the concept of a psychologist isn't even recognized, or it hasn't been in the past because there wasn't that kind of role.
[00:59:53] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So I think the first hurdle was around what you what's psychologist, what are you going to do with that kind of life path? So I would love to do more with Kind of aspiring psychologists who are maybe trying to navigate their own way and don't have necessarily That kind of, parental guidance, either to know that especially if they're coming from immigrant backgrounds, that you need to get Assistant psychology roles, you need to get, you know, certain types of experiences to make yourself competitive. What do you need to do to prepare yourself? Interviewing practice, but also around the racial microaggressions, I think. I would love to do, I think, in the future, More around that aspect of things because I think they're so subtle and insidious, and I didn't recognize them for a while in my, When it was happening to me, that I would love to provide that kind of space where, You know, even practicing psychologists from different ethnicities can kind of have a safe space to talk about those things As they're occurring and, you know, have the support maybe that I didn't have, I feel like I was very isolated when I went through it.
[01:01:15] Dr Aneesa Shariff: As you mentioned earlier, there can be a lot of gaslighting as well that happens, or in my case, an acknowledgment that it's happening. But then, Because those people have big old. Yeah. They they haven't had that lived experience. So for them, it was very much a blase kind of, yes, that's happened, let's move forward type of thing, but there was a huge opportunity cost For me, in terms of career growth, but also in terms of how it affected me in terms of my mental health at the time Yes.
[01:01:50] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And the, you know, the types of feelings it brought up in me. So if I had had a space where there was, you know, A group or something like that where, you know, I could see that other people were struggling with it too. Perhaps there could have been A bit I might have come to those realizations sooner, or I might have navigated that in a different way.
[01:02:13] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. I think, You know, what I'm kind of learning from you and Melody and from this conversation is how important it is also to To start having these kinds of conversations, right, out on the airwaves, When I even talked about I talked about the, concept for this series, which is healing in healing through practice, And I remember mentioning it to someone that I know who is a clinical psychologist, and I said, you know, I think about All the different kind of lenses that come into private practice and about how it can be an empowering and healing space for us. And they said, oh, yeah. But that's the thing we don't talk about.
[01:02:13] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. I think, You know, what I'm kind of learning from you and Melody and from this conversation is how important it is also to To start having these kinds of conversations, right, out on the airwaves, When I even talked about I talked about the, concept for this series, which is healing in healing through practice, And I remember mentioning it to someone that I know who is a clinical psychologist, and I said, you know, I think about All the different kind of lenses that come into private practice and about how it can be an empowering and healing space for us. And they said, oh, yeah. But that's the thing we don't talk about.
[01:03:06] Wendy Kendall: And I just thought that was a really fascinating response from somebody because the, you know, the very clear implication is if We're coming into private practice to heal from career trauma that we've experienced. That's because because out there, that system that we're part of is traumatizing people in different ways. Not only that, you know, it's other other experiences that we may have had, and so it's not necessarily always the, a career element. But Starting to have open conversations, and then from that I can't even remember where the quote's from, but it's, there was a quote along the lines of, you know, friendship starts when somebody says, oh, you too. That happened to you too, Where we start to build connections with people because we realize we're not alone in some of these experiences, and it helps us other people help us To name and to put a story together and to express it, and from there, we can start a dialogue.
[01:04:12] Wendy Kendall: And we can hopefully Advocate for meaningful change or or just literally, you know, just start practicing in ways that That results ultimately in a change. I've I've got one last question for you if you're okay for time, which is what are your hopes For the future, when we think about how we might dismantle Some of this system of oppression and how we might open up, psychology to Many more different lenses and walks of life.
[01:04:51] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Well, I think in terms of dismantling, I think More accountability. So
[01:04:59] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And deeper accountability rather than kind of this tick boxy We've had this discussion type of, you know
[01:05:07] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. What what would the deeper accountability look like?
[01:05:11] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I think actually Making it a requirement or a formalization that if somebody discloses potentially experiences of discrimination or microaggressions to their manager or whoever they might be disclosing it to, that there that needs to be documented, and it needs to follow a formalized procedure, not in a in a punitive way, but in a way that can facilitate those conversations. As you said, that that's the thing we don't talk about. Yeah. You know?
[01:05:47] Dr Aneesa Shariff: But we need to talk about it because turn turning a blind eye to it because that's not part of your lived experience. Yeah. It just it's not okay. There's a brain drain within psychology. And so if people feel like their only option is to leave, Then you're going to get an even more homogeneous workforce left in that system, and it will keep going.
[01:06:12] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And so I think More accountability, more more kind of, you know, need to kinda take that forward in a more formalized way that's not punitive, but more kind of raising awareness, in a deeper way, getting people to really reflect on Their actions and, you know, holding people accountable for change, is important. And I think, You know, the next generation of psychologists and the skills they have to provide assessment and therapy, Competently in different cultural context to people is really important, as I as I kind of mentioned before, on a deeper level where You're you're not intellectualizing or talking theoretically about kind of power, inequalities, and things like that, but you're really kind of grappling with it on a on a more reflective playing with it on a on a more reflective level as to thinking about yourself. We've all got culture bound Beliefs and values and behaviors, and we can all do with reflecting on that and Taking note of how we might be interpreting our clients' behavior in session. That's all coming through a cultural lens. It's really interesting, actually.
[01:07:34] Dr Aneesa Shariff: A few years ago, out of the blue, I had a BBC reporter contact me because she had found a paper I'd written on this Years ago and was going through her own counseling Wow. Process and had had a therapeutic kind of rupture because her, She her issues were very culturally rooted, and when she tried to raise that with her counselor, the counselor took a very culture blind approach and said, Well, that doesn't happen anymore. That's not relevant here. So that prompted her to go off and do her own research, and she found my paper, Read it, thought this is what my counselor needs to do, and took it to our counselor and said, I need you to follow this and do this. And then they did that, and apparently, were managed to have a really, positive outcome to that process.
[01:08:25] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And it it just really I thought my Article was there kind of in academia collecting dust, and here's this person saying that actually it changed the course of her whole life, and then that led to some Collaborations with her, to kind of raise more awareness. So we did kind of, a CDX live event During COVID and then we did, a BBC Radio 4 interview the year later called Culture on the Couch and it was really nice to kind of, Again, start talking about these issues on a bigger forum, a bigger platform, to really get it out there that Actually, these things are happening. And again, because there's so much confidentiality in the therapy space
[01:09:11] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Things don't get talked about. They're even more secretive. And, actually, what we need to be doing is raising awareness that this is as important of a competency skill, for clinical psychologists and other applied psychologists, therapists, counselors, that really you can't really work in a multi the cultural society competently, unless you've actually done more than a few kind of lectures, you really have to do a more Applied, kind of, you know, number of sessions or placement, actually, to to really be providing culturally competent services.
[01:09:51] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. And so that should be built into the way in which Training is actually structured and, you know, that plus many other things. I think one of the things that I'm really taking from this as well is How important it is to really think systematically or systemically about how we shift this this system. So you've spoken to the importance of supervision, and reflection, which can be together but don't have to be.
[01:10:20] Wendy Kendall: Right? We've also talked there about the accountability and what that really looks like and how that can be held in a way that isn't punitive, but is about It's a form of advocacy for change. Right? If we're, if we're holding ourselves accountable, Always holding ourselves accountable for knowing when it's not going right, when we're getting it wrong, and then having a you know, advocating for ourselves To do something about that and to make a change. I think your point there about the whole piece about how do we surface these conversations, how do we write about it, how do we engage different people in the public sphere about it, And then ultimately to to just really work for those changes to be put in place because the other thing that is really striking me about all of this is this is this is not knowledge that doesn't exist.
[01:11:23] Wendy Kendall: Right? The knowledge that you're talking about, the Cultural competence knowledge is not knowledge that doesn't exist. We have to go and ask people about it and put it in place, but it's there. You know, when I think about when I think about the changes that have been made recently to, the legislation around Providing service for adoption. I know that the adoption activism movement And a lot of the services within that and the support that adult adopted people really need It's actually pretty different to what has been serviced through the adoption system, that has been prescribed and mandated.
[01:12:14] Wendy Kendall: Like, there is a mismatch between the skills that clinicians have, actually, and From a you know, from our point of view, from inside that community, what it actually needs to be. And at the moment, I mean, it's early days, so I've not really seen much Discussion about that. But our knowledge is is you know, there's a there's decades of our own kind of knowledge and research and papers and all sorts of things that we could you know, and it's become kind of siloed because of the process of marginalization. So We need to, like I feel kind of frustrated that all of this knowledge is out there and we just keep ignoring it, And we need to stop doing that.
[01:12:58] Dr Aneesa Shariff: I think that's so important. Yes. Because I think, you know, with with the what I've Cher, that's all out there. I've really, you know, thought of anything new. I've not done that research.
[01:13:09] Dr Aneesa Shariff: There are really eminent Professors and researchers who've already published that research, it's there in the academic literature. The training program I went through had a specific course in culturally competent therapy, and I think what we need to do is just to prioritize these skills as being just as important as training in therapy models Or training in empathy and reflective listening and all the other types of training we go through in In these programs, it's it's about prioritizing it and then listening to to the people who are, as you say, the insiders as to what's needed.
[01:13:51] Wendy Kendall: Yes. Absolutely. And just literally holding that question of Maybe we're not the experts on this and somebody else is, and they have things that they could teach us.
[01:14:09] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really interesting, isn't it, to think about who who is the best person to be kind of leading and teaching on this. You know, it's usually, I find, In the Anyways, in the cultural kind of competency literature, it's people, psychologists from ethnic minorities who've had that lived experience, and then that Sparks that passion to do the research in that area.
[01:14:37] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:14:38] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. So that's quite interesting.
[01:14:41] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. I was gonna say, so when you say interesting, is there is there a kind of double edged sword to that?
[01:14:48] Dr Aneesa Shariff: I think so because I think, you know, as an insider, we want to scream about this topic. Right? Because we have a lived experience. It's easy for us to talk about this. But for people who are really reticent to talk about it, they're usually from That majority culture and not from one of these marginalized communities, and there's I get that there's a sense of fear around Not using the right terms, not using the right words, not knowing what's okay to say, what's not okay to say, so it's sometimes easier just to not Go there.
[01:15:24] Dr Aneesa Shariff: So I guess I I think it would be really interesting to kind of hear from them as to what gets in the way, What are the barriers they experience in talking about this more or doing the work themselves around training, reading? Yeah. Yeah. What would what would make that easier for them to engage with?
[01:15:45] Wendy Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. You've you've made me reflect also on experiences we've had, which is when I say we within the adoption activism community where, I I have even been asked.
[01:16:00] Wendy Kendall: So when I did my internal family systems therapy training, I did that because I then use it in coaching. So I was very clear about this. But, obviously, at the time, we were we you know, I was training alongside lots of other Lots of other different kinds of professionals, including therapists. And so in those kinds of settings, stuff would come up and I and then I would share things about my own perspective. And I think people got really interested in the fact that I first of all, I was a psychologist and that I was an adult adoptee talking very openly about some of these things in those contexts.
[01:16:33] Wendy Kendall: And so they would ask me to then go and speak to these groups. I'm at they would go with the AI again. I'm kind of determined I won't do that. And the reason being, I feel like all that information is out there. You just could go and do the work yourself and find out.
[01:16:57] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. I think that's a really good point, that, yeah, it's already out there. You know, you can just it's it's about prioritizing it, Isn't it? And and putting the effort in to go look for it rather than be a passive recipient of somebody who's Yeah. Done that work and is just Presenting it in these kind of easily Yeah.
[01:17:19] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Easy to absorb types of information.
[01:17:23] Wendy Kendall: Exactly. It takes the emotional labor off you to just Sign up for a course and go and get fed some info and then, like you say, tick the box, oh, I'm informed. The certificate. Exactly.
[01:17:36] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. No. That's a really good point.
[01:17:39] Wendy Kendall: Well, I could probably carry on for another couple of hours. It's been super interesting speaking with you about this, Anissa, and also, to, Melody about The experience of kind of supporting aspiring clinical psychologists in this area, and I know I I love the work that, Melody does, in that topic. I would love to hear about where we can find you on social media or or the Internet.
[01:18:16] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Yeah. So on social media, I'm on Instagram, with the handle just Anissa Sharif PhD And, LinkedIn as doctor Anissa Sharif. So those are the main kind of social media platforms, people can find me on, and I'm always very happy to have a chat if anyone's got any kind of further questions. Gins. And if anyone's interested in kind of some of the, the paper that I've written before, Some of the BBC collabs I've done, you can just Google search my name and it should come up.
[01:18:53] Dr Aneesa Shariff: But also very happy to link people directly to that if they want to DM me on a on one of the platforms as well. But thank you so much, Wendy, for having me on. I think this is the first time I've talked publicly about my experience
[01:19:10] Wendy Kendall: Mhmm. Yeah.
[01:19:11] Dr Aneesa Shariff: And transitioned to private practice and what drove me into And I was really nervous, about talking about this because it's so personal to me. Yeah. Usually, I'm talking about Other issues that aren't as close to me, but I think it's been really positive, and and another step towards kind of Moving on and healing from that experience. So I really do thank you for that.
[01:19:37] Wendy Kendall: Oh, it's really my pleasure and I'm really kind of, I feel I always feel really humble when I work with my my colleagues in this area, so I I thank you so much for that kind of vulnerability and for sharing that. I think it's such a it's so powerful that we speak about these things, and, you know, Yeah. I can yeah. Just thank you so much for being on today. I also wanna say, many thanks to Melody for, to doctor Melody Smith for being here as well today.
[01:20:13] Wendy Kendall: We will also make sure that Melody's social media Platforms and handles are, in our show notes, and, definitely give her a follow on, social media, because the content that she puts out for Aspiring Clinical Psychologists is is just superb. I love it. I follow it all the time. So doctor Anita Sharif, doctor Melody Smith, thanks for being here today, and, best wishes with everything.
[01:20:41] Dr Aneesa Shariff: Thank you.
